Existentialism

[Aivo½so]

I'd like to learn more about various philosophical movements and I'll start by creating a thread about Existentialism. Currently I don't have but a vague idea of what Existentialism is about. Who were/are the main Existentialist philosophers (Kierkegaard, Sartre...?) and what were their most important works and ideas? Which of these do you agree or disagree with? What does Existentialism mean to you?

[C0ckney]

existentialism = depressing bollocks

[Aivo½so]

"Existentialist angst" is a concept I've heard of before... what is it? Why do many people find Existentialism depressing?

[alva]

Sure it's frightning too many, no comfort of a suberbeing (but yourself). No one to blame and no-one to look too, to improve things for you.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by alva
Sure it's frightning too many, no comfort of a suberbeing (but yourself). No one to blame and no-one to look too, to improve things for you.

as info, not all existentialists are atheists, but the views of God even from religious existentialists are not necessarily the most comforting.

[Japher]

Was Albert Camus a existentialist? I like his books. I kind of subscribe to the philosiphy, accept from the "you become worm food when you die" idea. While it's probably true, the thought of a heaven is much more pleasant.

[Al B. Sure!]

Existentialists are as varied as the Christian Dostoevsky to the "God is dead" Nietzsche (who, due to preceeding other existentialists like Sartre, might be described as proto-existentialist)

the basic idea is that you have no essence (your entire point in living) but that which you create. A pen was created to write for example and does not chose what it will become but as humans, we are clean-slates, who can become and do anything depending on what we want. furthermore, we are capable of anything and everything and can not blame anyone or anything for us failing to achieve our goals.

Existentialism is synonymous with the concept of the American Dream and capitalism though very strangely the majority of existentialists were socialists (how does that make sense? if a man is only accountable to himself for his success or failure, why would a socialist State exist to re-distribute wealth, etc.?)

[Japher]

I guess I am much more an existentialist than I thought. Even when we did that philospher test thingy a while back it told me that my philosophy most closely resembles Nietzsche's... I guess I should do some reading. Good writters are always ones you agree with

[Aivo½so]

I think Albert Camus is usually considered an existentialist. Haven't yet read anything by him, though.

Existentialism is synonymous with the concept of the American Dream and capitalism though very strangely the majority of existentialists were socialists (how does that make sense? if a man is only accountable to himself for his success or failure, why would a socialist State exist to re-distribute wealth, etc.?)

Maybe they thought that the kind of communist society they advocated would have afforded greater chances for self-realization for everyone? Remember that in a "true" communist society, even the state is supposed to have withered away.

I didn't know Nietzsche and Dostoevsky were existentialists... but what about Kierkegaard? Isn't he considered to be the founder of existentialism? I think he lived before Nietzsche, too...

[Oncle Boris]

Nietzsche is considered to be the grandfather of existentialism.

Then there was Heidegger's ontology, which inspired Sartre's "L'être et le néant".

The most important existentialist thinkers are, to my knowledge, Sartre, Camus, and Simone de Beauvoir. In France, existentialism had a popular success (with Sartre's L'existentialism est un humanisme), but in the academic circles structuralism was definitely more important.

[Japher]

Maybe they thought that the kind of communist society they advocated would have afforded greater chances for self-realization for everyone?

I don't really think they would care about everyone to the point of abandoning their believes. You are what YOU make of yourself not what the others deem you to be. I think most socialist existentialists are probably just fooling themselves... Kind of like those who believe you need to alleviate sins through prayer and not through atonement of the real kind.

[Soul Survivor]

Sartre's "No Exit" is very very good, but I find most of his other works boring and painful to read. Kiekegaard is probably my favorite of them all, although I don't agree with a lot of his ideas, his writings have had more impact on my life than anything else I've ever read. His best works include "Fear and Trembling", "The Concept of Dread", "Sickness Unto Death". Some of them are pretty complicated and take a while to get through - but well worth the time.

There's also "The Stranger" by Camus, which I have never liked... but it is considered one of the foremost existentialist works. Then of course Dostoyevsky, "The Brothers Karamazov" is my personal favorite. Beckett's "Waiting For Godot" and anything by Nieztsche are also great reads. I tend to agree more with him than I care to admit....

And finally Heidegger, if you can figure out what he's actually saying... please tell me. I still can't get through all of "Being and Time". I wouldn't recomend it unless you want to be throughly and repeatedly confused.

[Aivo½so]

I don't really think they would care about everyone to the point of abandoning their believes. You are what YOU make of yourself not what the others deem you to be.

What I was trying to say was basically that, in a capitalist society, you might be born to poverty-stricken parents, for example, and therefore have less of an opportunity to make of yourself what you want to be, whereas in a utopian communist society poverty, of course, wouldn't exist, and you would be able to more freely choose your own destiny. Isn't that the whole point of existentialism?

"Fear and Trembling", "The Concept of Dread", "Sickness Unto Death"

They don't sound like very amusing reads. So, who is the founder of existentialism, Kierkegaard or Nietzsche?

[KrazyHorse]

I don't know if Nietzsche is considered existentialist.

Always thought of the founder of Existentialism as Sartre.

[KrazyHorse]

But then again I'm not much of a filosofizer

[Buck Birdseed]

Kirkegaard coined the term, Sartre defined it the way we think of it today (ie. without god as a focal point). Bascially it's all about how we're totally free from any moral rules we do not create ourselves and how supposedly horrible this is (angst). Later existentialists were much preoccupied with basing a morality on the lack of morality which is a bit weird I always thought. (Yes, I know, it's a morality based on taking responsibility for your own actions and not claiming anything is "natural" or "pre-determined", don't hit me.)

I prefer the ideas that followed Existentialism, especially radical feminism, late Heideggerian aesthetics and discourse theory. Existentialism is way too pessimistic for me.

[Al B. Sure!]

it seems optimisitic and empowering to me... you and you alone have control of your life and you can achieve whatever you want to achieve.

i guess, from the perspective of an old man, it is horrible though...

[Ben Kenobi]

Kierkegaard has a pretty good definition of existentialism. He says that an existentialist values work above everything else, that if you work hard, the work is more important than the particular goal. It differs from what Kierkegaard values in that the movement, not the direction is the only thing that counts. For Kierkegaard, he critiques existentialism like Lewis Carrol, in that you can run all day, but never get anywhere.

[Aivo½so]

So, do you people think existentialism is reconcilable with Marxism?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Aivo�so
So, do you people think existentialism is reconcilable with Marxism?

Sartre did, but he is widely derided for this view.

I don't have much time for the philosophical existentialists. Sartre isn't much of a philosopher and Heidegger could use some arguments in place of the turgid prose that is Being and Time. I must admit that because I work in the Analytic tradition I'm not big on Heidegger although I do have a copy of Being and Time and working in Classical Philosophy helps a bit. Perhaps we should have an Apolyton Heidegger reading group?

The idea of absolute freedom tends to be undermined by the scientific world view, although to be fair Sartre would say that human consciousness necessarily transcends any attempt at explanation or determination.

I've always thought that it worked better through novels. Sartre's Nausea manages to communicate his ideas much more effectively than Being and Nothingness.

[lord of the mark]

Names associated with Jewish existentialism are Rosenzweig, Buber, and i think Levinas.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Kierkegaard has a pretty good definition of existentialism. He says that an existentialist values work above everything else, that if you work hard, the work is more important than the particular goal. It differs from what Kierkegaard values in that the movement, not the direction is the only thing that counts. For Kierkegaard, he critiques existentialism like Lewis Carrol, in that you can run all day, but never get anywhere.

For a different view of religious existentialism, I must again suggest to you Fackenheims "to mend the world" this time not for his views of the holocaust, but for his introduction to the philosophy of Franz Rosenzweig.

[Elok]

The only existentialist I have experience with is Nietzsche, who, it can be safely said, was a total Froot Loop. Oh, and I read The Stranger, which posits that true happiness stems from acting noncommittal and banging some halfwitted chick you work with. Or something like that. I lost all interest in that particular philosophy after reading The Stranger. I stick to philosophies that actually say something you can apply to life in a positive fashion, as opposed to whining endlessly about how weak and foolish everyone else is.

[Japher]

stick to philosophies that actually say something you can apply to life in a positive fashion, as opposed to whining endlessly about how weak and foolish everyone else is.

Come now Elok, don't all philosophies endlessly whine about how weak and foolish all those who don't agree are? Especially religious ones. Camus was a depressed individual, that doesn't mean that all existentialist are. He merely addressed the epitamy of the philosophy in that you are responsible for your actions, even if those actions are wrong and make you feel horrible. Still, it was your own personal power that got you to that point, and that you have no one to blame but yourself.

IMO, ppl who don't subscribe to at least personal responsibility for their own actions are those who whine.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I have experience with is Nietzsche, who, it can be safely said, was a total Froot Loop.

Why safely said? He also had totally changed around philosophy. Philosophers are still dealing with his statement that a morality that says all men are inviolable cannot exist without a 'God' and since there is no God (at least to him and many people today), how can you justify such a morality? Philosophers are STILL trying to do so, but without success. Nietzsche challenged the 'accepted' norms of philosophy and turned things totally on their heads. That, IMO, is something to be respected.

[devilmunchkin]

i used to label myself as an atheistic existentialist in high school. figures right? I don't even think they taught me the totality of this philosophy either while in h.s. i remember learning all about absurdity and how the human was essentially alienated from everything (god, peers, nature, self..etc) and thinking "holy crap! that's my life!"
now, i think there are some things i missed and i don't consider myself one anymore..but i do remember those tenants and Albert Camus.

[Oncle Boris]

I don't see why communism should be incompatible with existentialism. Existentialists suggested that political implication aimed at appeasing the human sufferings could be a way tom undermine the 'absurdity' of life.

As for 'The Stranger', it is a literary work and not philosophical in itself.

[Soul Survivor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

I have experience with is Nietzsche, who, it can be safely said, was a total Froot Loop.

Why safely said? He also had totally changed around philosophy. Philosophers are still dealing with his statement that a morality that says all men are inviolable cannot exist without a 'God' and since there is no God (at least to him and many people today), how can you justify such a morality? Philosophers are STILL trying to do so, but without success. Nietzsche challenged the 'accepted' norms of philosophy and turned things totally on their heads. That, IMO, is something to be respected.

Nietzsche writes on both sides of the fine line between genius and insanity....

[Agathon]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


For a different view of religious existentialism, I must again suggest to you Fackenheims "to mend the world" this time not for his views of the holocaust, but for his introduction to the philosophy of Franz Rosenzweig.

Would that be the recently deceased Prof. Emil Fackenheim?

If so, he was one of ours. Go U of T!!!!

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
I don't see why communism should be incompatible with existentialism. Existentialists suggested that political implication aimed at appeasing the human sufferings could be a way tom undermine the 'absurdity' of life.

But if one is characterized by absolute freedom and nothing is worthwhile unless we make it so by committing ourselves to it, then it follows that there is no reason to privilege being a Marxist-Leninist over being an anarchist, a Republican, a psychopath or a rapist.