Armies--Regular, Veteran

steven8r · January 9, 2004, 19:23

I've noticed that if you create an Army using a MGL, the Army has the 'Regular' Status, even when built in a city with a Barracks. However, Armies that are built from the Military Academy have the 'Veteran' status. (Don't know if this is affected by having a Barracks or not. I've never built the MilAcdmy in a city w/o Barracks--any city that had enough production to build MilAcd had already built a Barracks.)

Since the hp's come from the units loaded within, not from the Army itself, is there really any diference between Regular and Veteran Armies?

I don't guess there's such things as 'Conscript' Armies, and I don't think that 'Elite' Armies are possible, however it can be populated w/ Elite units.

Is this how it is? Theseus nee ropdos..... anyone please feel free to chime in.

Thanks.

Steven

Theseus · January 9, 2004, 20:09

I believe so, yes. And the 'experience' of an Army plays no role. Soren answered this question in a chat once, I think.

Sartek · January 10, 2004, 03:31

then what is the point of armies w/ exp?

Jaybe · January 10, 2004, 12:33

No point, Sartek, but the game considers a military unit (army) built in a city with barracks a veteran. They did not make a special exception for the army.

Shogun Gunner · January 11, 2004, 10:46

True, because the individual units in the army combined give the army it's strenght level.

Rasputin · January 11, 2004, 12:50

just par tof game atmosphere.....

Risa · January 12, 2004, 01:42

Doesn't it affect the chance of retreat?

Sarxis · January 12, 2004, 02:09

Do Armies retreat?

MrWhereItsAt · January 12, 2004, 02:38

Interesting question - has anyone ever had an army of units that can retreat, has been attacked AND has lost enough to retreat?

vmxa1 · January 12, 2004, 02:45

Yes I have had armies of horses and armies of AC and after a battle or two they go on defense. They get attacked, but do not retreat and will get killed. So as near as I can figure out they will not retreat.

Risa · January 12, 2004, 03:58

I've seen army retreats. At least when my crusader army attacking an infantry.

MrWhereItsAt · January 12, 2004, 04:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Risa
I've seen army retreats. At least when my crusader army attacking an infantry.

Ah - that's not a retreat. You are seeing the army stop attacking when it loses a certain number of hp. A retreat is when the enemy attacks YOU, and once you lose down to 1hp, units with the retreat ability (eg Horsemen) have a chance to retreat from the attack to the next tile away from the attacker, if such a tile exists.

Risa · January 12, 2004, 04:20

Huh?
Isn't that the same thing? When down to 1 hp, a unit with more movement than 1 will have a chance to disengage from combat, that is retreat.

Admiral PJ · January 12, 2004, 08:09

In my 7 Ages of Man mod, I have made Leaders have combat values, and they gain Experience - although i've kept the offense and defense AI setting flags off, as I don't know if the AI will know to use this as a leader otherwise.
They are powerful in millitary terms, as they can lead effectively their own millitary units etc, as well as personal combat abilities.

Armies in Conqests at least cannot have attack /defense ability set, so Experience would appear to be useless.

Artillery units also have experience values, but I think this gives them better bombardment effectiveness.. is this true? They only gain experience if lethal bombard is set and destroy a unit.

Admiral PJ · January 12, 2004, 08:13

Risa appears correct, A unit is retreating if it fails an attack and only has 1hp, as well as when a defending unit retreats if its damaged. Its technically a Tactical Withdrawal , where the attacking cavalry manage to withdraw or retreat after a charge, but lose a lot of HP or horses in the skirmish cavalry attack and withdrawal.

Live long and prosper Risa (Risas a startrek planet isn't it ? )

MrWhereItsAt · January 12, 2004, 09:00

But don't ALL armies have this ability, regardless of the unit in them? My armies stop frequently on attack if they start getting worn down. I can't remember if it's every time, but certainly enough that I can't think of an exception. Whenever I have lost an army it is due to my own stubborn stupidity - I attack several times with an army, sometimes after being repulsed by a particular defender.

If this is affected by retreat odds then I apologise - you'll be right about it being part of the retreat mechanism. As to whether vet status affects the chance to retreat for armies, this may need to be specially tested, as what is true for other armies can't really be assumed for armies by proxy.

steven8r · January 12, 2004, 11:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe
No point, Sartek, but the game considers a military unit (army) built in a city with barracks a veteran. They did not make a special exception for the army.

If you take a MGL to a city w/ a Barracks and build an Armey, it will be 'Regular'--even with the Barracks.

The only way (that I've found) to get a Veteran Army is via Military Academy.

BTW: Has anyone ever had the Military Academy in a city w/o a Barracks. It'd be interesting to see if it's the Barracks or the MilAc that gives a 'built' Army the Veteran status.

Steven

vmxa1 · January 12, 2004, 14:35

I would say that you can count an attack as a retreat, if the attack stops and the unit you attack is not dead.
Normally an army will attack until it is dead or the unit it is attacking is dead. I have not seen any cases where my army attacked and stopped, while the unit was alive.

Since you are not going to attack a unit when your army is down to 1HP, you do not see alot of those opportunities. On defense you can see many cases where attackers keep attacking and drive your army to a small HP level. I have not seen any where the attackers stopped attacking and my army was at 1hp or any number of HP's. The attackers attack until either it is dead or the army is dead.

Now I am not saying it could not happen, but I have never seen it and I make armies with the first leader I get 95/100 times. IOW I have armies and use them in nearly every game.

So are you saying you saw an attack where both the attacker and the defender was alive at the end of the combat? Was the attacker a fast mover with retreat? If you saw it where the army did the attacking, that would be worthy of a save being posted.

steven8r · January 12, 2004, 15:30

vmxa1,

In my most recent game, Emporer/Standard/Japan, I made several Armies. Several times during this game, my Army would stop an unsuccessful attack against a unit (if it still had at least 1 movement left). Both units (my Army and the Defender) were still alive at the end of the combat. These were Sword Armies vs Rifle or Infantry.

However, if the defender gets down to 1 hp, the attacker WILL NOT retreat! The retreat seems only to happen if the defender looks 'too powerful'.

Steven

vmxa1 · January 12, 2004, 20:08

I will have to watch carefully to see. I have not used a sword army to go after infantry. I would expect that to be hard road. At that stage I would using a sword army in a pacify or defense role.

Theseus · January 12, 2004, 20:58

Fastmover Armies will retreat upon reaching 1hp when on attack. They will not retreat if the defender, however, is also at 1 hp (like all fastmovers).

Fastmover Armies on defense will not retreat if fortified, but will if unfortified. Not sure about when on the 'y' command, whatever it's called.

I do not know what slowmover Armies, now in C3C themselves fastmovers, will do.

Steven8r, that is one of the many reasons to build mixed unit Armies. Wouldn't you have much rather had a Longbow, Rifle, Guerilla, or Infantry added to a 2xSword Army?

steven8r · January 13, 2004, 10:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Steven8r, that is one of the many reasons to build mixed unit Armies. Wouldn't you have much rather had a Longbow, Rifle, Guerilla, or Infantry added to a 2xSword Army?

Perhaps I should've put some unit w/ defense or 0-range bombard. In that game I never built any Longbows--only Samurai. So I guess it was a 2x Sword, 2x Samurai Army. Then my later Armies were 4x Samurai--those are pretty powerful.

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1 I will have to watch carefully to see. I have not used a sword army to go after infantry. I would expect that to be hard road. At that stage I would using a sword army in a pacify or defense role.

Unfortunately I was using my Sword Army on a Defensive roll--I was defending my territory from an Evil Aztec Invasion. They had Cavalry, (I had no Horses or Saltpeter) I had just recently gotten Infantry and and was able to upgrade my Treb. to Arty. I was using Samurai and my Sword Armies to attack. I was able to push-back those pesky Aztec invaders, but I wasn't taking any of their territory--so no 'Resistance Quelling' for me. I finally got Peace when I saw the first Aztec Tank (which (after it was weakened a little) was later killed by that same Sword Army).

Even Sword Armys remain useful for a long time.

Steven

Aqualung71 · January 14, 2004, 08:02

Possible answer to the original question.....perhaps a "regular" army is one which can only include 3 units, while a "veteran" army is a maximum 4-unit army available after the Pentagon is built? Just a guess....but I suppose it can only be valid if all your armies automatically become veteran after you build the Pentagon.

vmxa1 · January 14, 2004, 13:18

The real question to me is why do we have to try to figure these types of things out? That should have been documented. Yes it may not affect the game play, but many civers want to know this stuff.

steven8r · January 14, 2004, 13:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Thriller
Possible answer to the original question.....perhaps a "regular" army is one which can only include 3 units, while a "veteran" army is a maximum 4-unit army available after the Pentagon is built? Just a guess....but I suppose it can only be valid if all your armies automatically become veteran after you build the Pentagon.

Good guess, but inaccurate. Even after I built the Pentagon, any Army created by a MGL has the 'Regular' status.

I guess it's just a way to tell the difference between a 'Battle-Created' Army and a 'Built' Army.

Steven

steven8r · January 14, 2004, 13:27

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
The real question to me is why do we have to try to figure these types of things out? That should have been documented. Yes it may not affect the game play, but many civers want to know this stuff.

==>

Documentation in Civ?!?!

ROFLMAO

Fortunately there's 'Poly

Steven

Kuciwalker · January 14, 2004, 16:33

I've also noticed that if a unit in a "Regular" army is promoted, so is the army.

steven8r · January 14, 2004, 16:43

I haven't noticed this, but then again, all my recent test Armies are currently all populated w/ Elites so no promotions for them.

Steven

Risa · January 14, 2004, 23:27

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
I've also noticed that if a unit in a "Regular" army is promoted, so is the army.

I wish it were true to me.
I've never got armies promoted in C3C.

binyo66 · January 16, 2004, 04:59

I have experience:

If I put 4 unit MA Elite in the Army, then it would be vet. If I put 4 unit tanks elite in the Army, I think at that time I got reg. So, most likely it is depends on total HP of all unit (IMO), and I never have army retreat.