Large Empires - Which Government

adrianchew · January 12, 2004, 17:15

If you're intending to wage war and capture a ton of cities and grow your empire instead of winning peacefully, what's the best government type?

I find Republic gives a nice boost to research but a lot of cities end up being pretty useless production-wise... would you do Despotism -> Monarchy -> Communism instead?

vmxa1 · January 12, 2004, 20:37

This is not as straight forward as it seems. Los of variables come into the equation. Ignoring all of that it comes down to being religious or not. If religious you can change with little pain.

Otherwise I would go to republic and stay there. It is fine for wars, if you get some luxs and have markets.

Despot is not good for anything in comparison to all other forms.

vmxa1 · January 12, 2004, 20:39

Quote:

Originally posted by adrianchew

I find Republic gives a nice boost to research but a lot of cities end up being pretty useless production-wise...

What do you mean here? Are you talking out corruption from the OCN and distance? Are you talking about unhappy pop?

What is making them useless? Whatever it is, unless it was WW, it won't be fix by a different government.

joncnunn · January 12, 2004, 20:42

If peaceful, then closely compare how much corruption would be saved under Democracy compared to Republic against unit savings.

Note that if you have a lot of millitary units, it's possible to spend less on unit support under Democracy directly given the 2X cost of units above the limit under Republic.

Yup, if not religious, the up to 8 turns anarchy must be factored in.

If you have 1.13 and have already built the SP HQ, your probably best off staying communist.

adrianchew · January 13, 2004, 12:01

Useless ie. shield production is reduced to almost nothing - almost any improvement in the faraway cities have to be bought if you want decent build times.

Won't Communism yield overall slightly better shield production in the whole empire + you can have the SPHQ? Plus ability to field tons and tons of units at the same time.

I'm wondering if the lost in commerce is that bad - given you can devote most all to research instead of taxes since all you need is cash to upgrade units but not buy improvements.

Aggie · January 13, 2004, 12:27

Well I usually wage war an take tons of cites and usually stay in republic. As mentioned earlier unless you are religious, in a competetive game you simply lose too much to change in the industrial age.

If your religious the reduced corruption at a distance comes at a price of lower production at the core(s), so whether its worth it or not depends on too many variables to state here.

Aggie

The Templar · January 13, 2004, 14:00

Has to be communism - especially if your empire spans islands and multiple continents.

Change pop-rush to gold-rush on communism and you have a really good form of government.

vmxa1 · January 13, 2004, 18:20

Quote:

Originally posted by adrianchew
Useless ie. shield production is reduced to almost nothing - almost any improvement in the faraway cities have to be bought if you want decent build times.

Won't Communism yield overall slightly better shield production in the whole empire + you can have the SPHQ? Plus ability to field tons and tons of units at the same time.

I'm wondering if the lost in commerce is that bad - given you can devote most all to research instead of taxes since all you need is cash to upgrade units but not buy improvements.

I cannot address the commerce issue as I had not really tested it, nor read any reliable reports on it.

But the raw shields should be the same in all forms of government. The corruption will be impacted by government and that determines the net production of the city. So if you are talking about how many shields are generated, you need to look at the citizens and the tiles they are working. If you are actually interested in the useful shields, now the form of government matters.

I am not so concerned about far flung cities and how productive they are, it is the core that matters to me and if FP is functional, those cities. They are going to determine if my empire will prosper or not. Since I do not play on huge maps very often, those far off cities are coming too late to matter all that much. I can get some production out of them and that is all I need. Now with the new specialist I can do quite well.

Anyway I just cannot switch more than once without being religious and I will have to choose between Republic or Monarchy, maybe Dem.

MoonWolf · January 13, 2004, 18:57

I normally go for democracy even if I have a lot of wars. I normally let my governors manage the citizen mood meaning it will take a long time before my cities are rioting (when they start starving, I'll do something). The trick to go for war in democracy, is to not only have a lot of luxuries and happy-buildings, but to run your wars fast and effective. I have even experienced WLTKD's after I've taken some enemy cities!

My current map is quite special with a long bottleneck to my neighbours. This make it difficult to find a good location for my FP unless I "integrate" my neighbour in to my empire. So I'm actually thinking of trying Communism if I'll grow big (am not religious). I think it's must be a try to find what's best for you and what you prefer. Just stay out of democracy if you run into a longlasting and bloody (for you) war.

The Templar · January 13, 2004, 20:24

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

I am not so concerned about far flung cities and how productive they are, it is the core that matters to me and if FP is functional, those cities. They are going to determine if my empire will prosper or not. Since I do not play on huge maps very often, those far off cities are coming too late to matter all that much. I can get some production out of them and that is all I need. Now with the new specialist I can do quite well.

I prefer communal corruption for the following reason - no matter how good your core is, each city can produce at maximum 1 unit per turn. With all cities functioning, each city with a factory can get reasonable progress done on one unit each turn. I find the bottleneck on one unit/one city/one turn more damaging than the small shield hit my core takes. Besides, civil engineers can more than compensate.

Quote:

Anyway I just cannot switch more than once without being religious and I will have to choose between Republic or Monarchy, maybe Dem.

I usually switch twice if scientific - using the industrial age slingshot to compensate. Either immediately to Dem if I'm feeling like a buildier or to Communism once I get it.

vmxa1 · January 13, 2004, 21:07

The Templar , may be on the wrong page here, but far flung cities are not going to have factories. Anyway how many units do I need and how many can I afford to crank out each turn? At thi juncture in the game I should already have enough units to handle what ever I paln to do and will only make a few more, unless in a war.

vmxa1 · January 13, 2004, 21:09

MoonWolf, just be aware that those govenors are expending resources to keep the pop happy, so you may be suffering already.

The Templar · January 13, 2004, 21:19

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
The Templar , may be on the wrong page here, but far flung cities are not going to have factories.

Unless you are using a government with communal corruption (i.e. communism in the official version).

The need to raise a large number of units rapidly comes (for me) with the discovery of tanks. Incidentally, this happens after plenty of time to build factories in far-flung cities under communism.

Nor Me · January 13, 2004, 23:17

I've just tested the 1.15 Beta corruption model. If it works the way I think it does then Communism is going to be the best goverment for large empires.

That should hold for non-religious builders as well.

Raghnall · January 14, 2004, 11:15

.

Quote:

Change pop-rush to gold-rush on communism and you have a really good form of government.

I disagree, unless you are a peaceful Communist. If I'm going communist it's because I'm fighting. If I'm taking cities, and large ones at that, after I've quieted resistence using pop rush to build new buildings is what I want vs. gold rush, because I can reduce the number of indiginous inhabitants that might try to overthrow my puppet regime

Capt Dizle · January 14, 2004, 12:21

I agree with vmxa1 here. On most maps and difficulty levels you will be able to produce sufficient military power to run the board by simply going to republic and staying there. Any gains you make by switching to a later government as essentially moot.

You need to have mastered some basic skills regarding expansion and diplomacy but I am assuming those are in place for the purpose of discussion.

The Templar · January 14, 2004, 17:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Raghnall
.

I disagree, unless you are a peaceful Communist. If I'm going communist it's because I'm fighting. If I'm taking cities, and large ones at that, after I've quieted resistence using pop rush to build new buildings is what I want vs. gold rush, because I can reduce the number of indiginous inhabitants that might try to overthrow my puppet regime

Turn up your tax rate and start buying units that are at least half finished (since the cost per shield decays the more shields are already present) in about 20 to 25 cities (assuming 10 cities are producing 1 tank/bomber/infantry per turn) and you can raise 25-30 tanks/bombers/infantry per turn. With a sufficient number of airports you can also move all of this the turn it is built. Moreover, no lingering effects of unhappiness in those captured cities after all that pop-rushing. Besides, with the numbers of units, it doesn't take long to destroy an entire civ (thereby negating flips). Moreover, reseach becomes irrelevant with sheer numbers like this (and during preparation, I mean "peace" use espionage to get techs).

Which is not to say good ol' regular communism is bad. It works best for big empires in a non-modded game.

joncnunn · January 14, 2004, 20:41

Prior to SPHQ, it was possible if the empire was large enough under Comminsum for every city to become of marginall production. (Think Borg style city placement covering half of a huge map.) Well, this might still be possible with the SPHQ, but cerinately requires a lot more cities than before.

Under a Democracy, the core cities are still extremely productivle.

Capt Dizle · January 14, 2004, 21:14

Why couldn't they use KGB instead of SPHQ?

swat-spas2 · January 15, 2004, 14:55

edit (accidental 2x post)

swat-spas2 · January 15, 2004, 15:32

jt: Because not every communist country called it the KGB (see SE Asia and China (GUB or MSS); Cuba calls it the DGI I think). And secondly the KGB was more like the espionage center with a good deal more power politically and militarily (border guards and nuke codes) than the CIA (post-60s at least). Only the 5th branch directorate of the KGB handled state security on internal matters, granted it undoubtedly was a very large and powerful branch.. others dealt with things like counter-intel 7th, acquiring foreign intel 1st, border security..etc.

As far as this discussion; I stay in republic for most of the game, and switch in the industrial age generally to democracy. The tech slingshot I get in the middle ages usually catches (and often passes) whatever gains the headstart given the AI made; its possible that this isn't the wisest course of action though, but it doesnt seem to hurt much in SP (mp is definitely a different world). The size of my armies is usually going to be somewhat cheaper in democracy, plus it supports more cities at a better corruption rate so I can build more if I need them. I find the slider on some luxury trade and the amount of luxuries I have by this point in the game more than compensates for the higher WW. Police and, if I bother, uni-suffage, help with the rest of it. You get more points this way too with all those happy people.

The advantage of communism for me is the 3rd palace making your total empire more effective at building units. You probably lose enough trade through corruption and the no trade bonus to make that part moot, thus losing science and happiness or $. Pop rushing the new cities is nice to get that temple up for starters. But I usually can have $$ laying around by this point too. You also don't support that many more units than republic at that stage of the game (consider city sizes).