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Old January 16, 2004, 15:03   #31
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too far to the right

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Old January 16, 2004, 15:06   #32
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WHAT??

Too far to the right??
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Old January 16, 2004, 15:17   #33
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jon, although I admit he is a bit too mainstream for my tastes, he is certainly a lot closer than the US has gotten in a while with a major candidate. I am glad to hear that you will vote for him if necessary, though.

And yes, MrFun: some of us have actual opinions instead of hyphenating every thought we express with "moderate".
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Old January 16, 2004, 15:19   #34
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Democrat = left

Republican = right



So where did Jon get the idea that Dean is too far to the right??
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Old January 16, 2004, 15:23   #35
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Democrats = centre-left
Republicans = centre-right

jon miller = full left

=> Dean is to the right of jon
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Old January 16, 2004, 15:29   #36
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Dean isn't a leftist by any means. He's right of Kerry, Clark, Gephardt and Edwards. The only Democrat in the current batch who is more conservative is Lieberman, who might as well be a Republican anyway.
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Old January 16, 2004, 15:33   #37
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Dean is probably right of Clark. He's left of all others, AFAIK.
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Old January 16, 2004, 15:36   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Dean is probably right of Clark. He's left of all others, AFAIK.
You think Dean is more left of Sharpton, Kucinich, Kerry and Gephardt? Not a chance. He's right of them on economy and trade, guns, the death penalty, the military budget and a lot of other issues.
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Old January 16, 2004, 15:58   #39
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I bring up the left flank of the NDP.
It's a wonder you haven't come full circle, being so far off to the left.
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Old January 16, 2004, 16:10   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by monolith94
I really liked Braun - she seemed to me to be very down to earth. I'm glad she chose to support Dean.

And yes - it's silly to attack Dean for having no black people on his cabinet. You could literally spend a year in Vermont and the only black people or other minorities you see would be tourists. It's just THAT white.
It's silly to attack him for having no black people on his cabinet, period. So now people aren't allowed to choose their advisors?
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Old January 16, 2004, 16:16   #41
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This IS Al Sharpton we are talking about.
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Old January 17, 2004, 00:41   #42
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From AP

Study: Network news criticizes Dean most


- - - - - - - - - - - -
ASSOCIATED PRESS



Jan. 16, 2004 | LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Howard Dean received significantly more criticism on network newscasts than the other Democratic presidential contenders, who were the subjects of more favorable coverage, according to a study released Thursday.

More than three-quarters of the coverage of Dean's foes by the nightly news programs was favorable, while a majority of attention to Dean was negative, the Center for Media and Public Affairs found.

The study by the Washington-based media watchdog also found that network attention to the campaign was down by 62 percent compared to the last race involving an incumbent president, in 1996.

Researchers examined 187 stories broadcast on the ABC, CBS or NBC evening newscasts in 2003, looking at elements including quoted remarks about candidates and how they were depicted in profiles.

The study found that 49 percent of the coverage of former Vermont Gov. Dean was positive, compared to 78 percent of the rest of the Democratic field, collectively.

Dean's coverage rose to 59 percent positive in December after former Vice President Al Gore endorsed him, the study found.

The networks were generally less attentive to the election preseason than in the past, researchers found.

They devoted five hours and 20 minutes to coverage in 2003, which is a 32 percent drop from the seven hours, 49 minutes for the 2000 campaign, in which both party's nominations were contested.

In the 1996 race involving incumbent President Clinton, the networks spent slightly more than 14 hours on the campaign, according to the study.
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Old January 17, 2004, 00:45   #43
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And a bit of fun
Satire
- - - - - - - - - - - -



The latest White House script for reporters
Howard Dean is so angry! He has no credibility on foreign policy! He wants to take away your grenade launcher!

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Rich Procter



Jan. 17, 2004 | Immediate Release All Media

Hi! Wow, you guys and gals did such a Double-Plus-Good job during the '00 campaign (Al Gore -- earth tones, phony, invented the Internet, etc., etc.) that we're actually going to gift you with our Red State-Wal-Mart-focus-group-tested media memes early! As before, we're looking for 110 % COMPLIANCE, or else we'll see to it you lose that White House Press Credential, and you'll be back covering the Police Blotter for the local "Recycler."

HERE ARE YOUR NEW CAMPAIGN SCRIPT TEMPLATES. Plug in daily news events as needed:

1) DEAN IS AN ANGRY, NEGATIVE GUY (therefore NOTHING HE SAYS MATTERS, BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT HIS ANGER AND NEGATIVITY, NOT WHAT HE SAYS.)

How This Works:

DEAN PRESS CONFERENCE BITE: "I'm angry that 44 million Americans can't afford health insurance. We need single payer health insurance for all Americans."

YOUR SPIN: Why is he so darn negative? That's GUARANTEED to alienate swing voting Soccer Moms! Notice how his face turns all red and splotchy? If he stays this negative, the upbeat, positive vision of our beloved President Bush is sure to prevail ..."

2) DEAN IS UNELECTABLE. Never take anything he says seriously, because he can't be elected anyway.

How This Works:

NEWS ITEM: "New Time Magazine Poll -- Dean Trails Bush by Just Six Points In Head To Head Match Up"

YOUR SPIN: "Sources deep inside the White House today cast doubt on the seriously skewed results of a recent Time Magazine poll, which somehow mistakenly showed that, even at this early date, almost as many Americans favored the angry, negative, insurgent, marginal non-Southerner Howard Dean as favored our beloved, incredibly popular Texan man-of-the-people President George W. Bush. Attorney General John Ashcroft has announced an immediate investigation. Arrests seem certain. Mainstream political observer Ann Coulter had this comment ..."

3) DEAN SUPPORTERS ARE BUSH-HATING, SUSHI-EATING LATTE-SIPPERS, NOT REAL AMERICANS FROM THE HEARTLAND. Therefore nothing they say matters.

How This Works:

INTERVIEW BITE WITH DEAN SUPPORTER: "My son died in Iraq. He went there because President Bush said that Saddam was threatening us with nuclear weapons. He lied. There were no weapons, and no threat. That makes me sad, sick and furious."

YOUR SPIN: See that Lexus in the background? Bet that's hers, and there's a Starbucks cup in the cup holder. Most Americans drive Fords and Chevys. I wonder why she's so angry and negative? Her son couldn't have died. Do you see any bodies coming back on television? Any funerals? NO! Besides, the Dow is above 10,000, and we only lost 223,000 jobs last year! Bush is invincible

4) DEAN IS FROM VERMONT, A BACKWARD, UN-AMERICAN CESSPOOL OF YUPPIE (PROBABLY GAY) DILETTANTES, THEREFORE HAS NO CREDIBILITY. Therefore no one from Vermont who has ever supported him matters.

How This Works:

INTERVIEW BITE WITH VERMONT DEAN SUPPORTER: President Bush did diddly squat when my company shipped my tech job to India. That was a good-paying job. Now I'm busing tables at a coffee shop for tips. Protecting working families my Aunt Fanny ...

YOUR SPIN: A coffee shop? It's probably a Starbucks. They don't have Starbucks in the South, where real NASCAR Americans live. They love President Bush, just like other real Americans. We don't need these Maple Syrup Marxists telling us how to run our country ...

5) DEAN HAS NO CREDIBILITY ON FOREIGN POLICY, BECAUSE HE DODGED THE DRAFT. Therefore nothing he says about foreign policy matters.

DEAN INTERVIEW BITE: We've got to abandon this crazy, counterproductive unilateralist approach. We've got to get our allies involved in the global fight against terrorism.

YOUR SPIN: He dodged the draft, even though he (sneer) "technically" took his physical and got a (sneer) "deferment." Only a real, manly foreign policy expert like President Bush who has the courage to blow off our cheese-eating, chocolate-making "allies" and make manly, preemptive war on those heathen, bomb-throwing towel-heads should be president. President Bush could even correctly pronounce the name of Azerbaijan if he wanted to, but since Joe and Jane Sixpack can't pronounce it correctly, he won't either, to spare their feelings.

6) DEAN WANTS TO TAKE YOUR ASSAULT WEAPONS, GRENADE LAUNCHERS AND COP-KILLER BULLETS AWAY FROM YOU.

DEAN INTERVIEW BITE: I'm a lifelong member of the NRA.

YOUR SPIN: He's lying. He's a liar, like Al Gore. He's a gun-hating liberal. This is the huge gaffe that virtually ensures the reelection of our beloved President Bush. Did I mention how red and splotchy his face is when he flies into a psychotic, irrational rage for no reason?

7) SLOT IN WHERE NECESSARY -- DEAN IS MCGOVERN, DUKAKIS, MONDALE, WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYAN, ETC.

DEAN CAMPAIGN RELEASE: CANDIDATE DEAN ANNOUNCES PLAN TO RETURN CONTROL OF RADIO AND TELEVISION STATIONS TO LOCAL COMMUNITIES.

YOUR SPIN: Dean is so darn angry and negative! It's just too darn bad he's leading the Democrats to permanent minority party status. Look, we've got his picture up next to a picture of George McGovern. See? That proves he's like McGovern. How sad the Democrats can't find their voice and be good upbeat and moderate real Americans, like Republicans.

ACCEPTABLE QUESTIONS TO ASK DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE:


Why are you so angry and negative?
President Bush is incredibly popular, and beloved by common people like himself.

Why do you hate him, knowing this makes decent, God-fearing, Christian Americans hate you?

Bush is fighting terrorists, or will be, when we actually invade a country that has some. Why are you against that?
We (Republicans, Good Americans) support our troops. Why do you want to undermine them, and therefore kill them?
President Bush fought to provide Americans with a Medicare prescription drug benefit. Don't you realize that by hating him, you're putting yourself outside the mainstream of America?

UNACCEPTABLE QUESTIONS:


Anything about single-payer healthcare, rampant war profiteering by Bush corporate cronies in Iraq, Enron, WMD in Iraq, dead soldiers in Iraq, nonexistent nuclear program in Iraq, corporate malfeasance, funding for "No Child Left Behind," Afghanistan, quid pro quo anti-environmental legislation for "Pioneer Level" Corporate Donors, and the Bush ban on the government from making best deal with pharmaceutical companies for prescription drugs.

Clear? If you have any questions, just go to the Campaign Default Position -- Dean ANGRY FANATIC, Bush BELOVED LEADER. Thanks!
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Old January 17, 2004, 01:04   #44
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Dean has foot and mouth?
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Old January 17, 2004, 01:06   #45
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Hoof and mouth. It appears he's about to be slaughtered.
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Old January 17, 2004, 01:50   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Democrats = centre-left
Republicans = centre-right

jon miller = full left

=> Dean is to the right of jon
I see the light!
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Old January 17, 2004, 04:59   #47
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What poll has Bush carrying California by 15? I haven't seen that.
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Old January 17, 2004, 05:27   #48
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Quote:
Hoof and mouth. It appears he's about to be slaughtered.
LMFAO!
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Old January 17, 2004, 13:43   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Democrats = centre-left
Republicans = centre-right

jon miller = full left

=> Dean is to the right of jon
That's not quite accurate.

Republicans = right - far-right
Democrats = center-right
jon miller = left
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Old January 17, 2004, 14:50   #50
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Only to your totally screwed up perspective, che .
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Old January 17, 2004, 15:10   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


That's not quite accurate.

Republicans = right - far-right
Democrats = center-right
jon miller = left
Republicans = center-right-authoritarian
Democrats = center-left-authoritarian
Ozzy = Libertarian
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Old January 17, 2004, 16:23   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


That's not quite accurate.

Republicans = right - far-right
Democrats = center-right
jon miller = left
WRT the average US voter? Not quite.
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Old January 17, 2004, 20:04   #53
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I'll go with,

Republicans 30 years ago = center-right
Republicans = right
Democrats/Democrats 30 years ago = center-left
jon miller = left

KH, if you look at actual positions, the GOP is farther to the right than the public thinks it is. For instance, there was a Krugman column a couple years ago where focus groups refused to believe accurate descriptions of the stimulus bill the House passed (with a party-line vote) after 9/11.

Quote:
Dean is probably right of Clark. He's left of all others, AFAIK.
Dean is tagged as "leftist" because of his support for civil unions, his early, vocal opposition to the Iraqi War, and more importantly his small-d democratic campaign (which is why I support him). In pretty much every position, he's to the right of most of the Democrats (except Lieberman, Edwards, and possibly Clark). For instance, a pro-weed group looking at each of the candidates' positions on medical marijuana and graded them, Kucinich got an A+, Kerry got an A-, Dean got a D-, and Shrub got an F. McCain got a similar rap in 2000 where Shrub was actually a relatively moderate governer (in comparison to his presidency) and McCain has been a very consistent conservative, but he was tagged as a liberal because of his support for campaign finance reform.
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Old January 17, 2004, 20:07   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
This IS Al Sharpton we are talking about.
Leave Sharpton alone. He's the big winner among the candidates. Despite the odd gaffe, he's raised his profile immensely, has come across as an amusing, thoughtful and humane individual, and has positioned himself to replace Jesse Jackson as America's number one black politician.

I thought Sharpton was a bit weird before this, now I kind of like the man.
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Old January 17, 2004, 22:30   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
I thought Sharpton was a bit weird before this, now I kind of like the man.
I had no idea that you had such a high opinion of racist demagogues.
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Old January 17, 2004, 22:57   #56
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I had no idea that you had such a high opinion of racist demagogues.
We all know you do, so what's your point?
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Old January 18, 2004, 01:16   #57
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Just a general comment on the man and my suprise that someone seemingly intelligent would express admiration for the man.
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Old January 18, 2004, 19:38   #58
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Well, dean's a liar who has no credibility, but eh, vote for him anyway

When I manage to get my access to American voting rights, I'm voing Kerry all the way! (Edwards is nice as well... and Clark is affable)

Kerry is a straight talker who isn't a 'reactionary' (not in the traditional sense of the word- but the Howard Dean- let's blindly oppose president bush and provide not real alternatives and contradict myself- way)

[The amusing thing about my considerations is that I'm a conservative... the democratic party won't have me at all ]
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Old January 18, 2004, 19:43   #59
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Although I'd vote for President Bush if he was running against "Dean"

even though Bush is going to get america into another war if he's elected

*sigh*
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Old January 18, 2004, 20:06   #60
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Only in America can the Democrats be seen as a "left" party. They're just the less-ugly head of the of the right wing, big business two-headed Republocrat monster.

In most issue-based polls (ie, healthcare, jobs, etc) the public is way to the left of both parties. There's a reason why less than half of eligible voters even bother to cast a vote.

As for Dean, he's an anti-war candidate, not a left candidate. The left candidate, sadly, is Kucinich. Too bad he's also (quietly) anti-choice and a stark raving lunatic. Since his stint on SNL, Al Sharpton has been the most impressive of the sad, sad bunch.

All that said, any of them (well, maybe not Lieberman) would be better than Bush.

jon.
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And just in case a disputant, calls you to dispute about their claims,
Do not, then, dispute on them, except by way of an external dispute.
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