AU mod: The Jaguar Warrior

[Theseus]

Yeah, I understand that, but by having a number of experienced players on the same course / map, we would more easily see how unbalanced a cost of 15g might be in reviewing the resulting contrasts. Make sense?

[Dominae]

If we compare 10 Shields to 15 Shields, we're not going to figure out anything we're not already aware of: one is 5 Shields better than the other. If we only look at the 15 Shields version, we'll have a better body of data to judge whether or not the 15 Shields version is playable or not.

Maybe I'm not getting what you're getting at...


Dominae

[nbarclay]

A civ with no UU at all would be "playable." When we decided to boost the power of the Conquistador, our criterion was not whether the Spanish are "playable" with the Conquistador as defined in the standard rules, but rather that the usefulness of the Conquistador as originally defined was very limited. The situations are not that far from parallel: both the Conquistador and the Jag under the standard C3C rules can be useful for certain types of special operations but are a horrible investement for use in conventional combat.

I'm going to post my 4000 BC autosave from my test game in another thread in case anyone wants to give it a go. The challenge: how much value can you get out of your Jags, and at what cost to your own REXing? I'll be interested to see whether, if several people try this, it works consistently well or whether some players end up having their attempt to use their Jags backfire.

[Dominae]

The Conquistador is barely playable in stock. Similarly for the Chasqui Scout. You're arguing that the 15-Shield Jag is in same boat as these two; alexman and I (among others) are arguing that it's not.

Edit: Let me elaborate. At 20 Shields, it's pretty clear (to me anyways) that the Chasqui Scout is no better than 2 Scouts. Actually, it's worse; the only thing it has going for it is that it can trigger your GA. For the Conquistador, you can get pretty creative with the 6 MPs, but most of the time it's just better to have an extra Knight. But this is not the right thread to discuss such things.

Like I said, comparing the 10-Shield variant to the 15-Shield one will only show us that 10 Shields is better. But we know that. What we want to figure out first is whether or not the 15-Shield version is playable or not.


Dominae

[alexman]

Time to vote. We have 48 hours:

Yes/No: Reduce cost of Jaguar Warrior to 10 shields.

My vote: No (big surprise).

We already have 3 'yes' votes cast before the official voting began (Theseus, Dominae, Stuie). Please vote again if you have changed your mind since the proposal was put under consideration.

[Dominae]

I've changed my mind (Fried is going to kill me if he reads that...).

No.

[lockstep]

Sort of a borderline case, therefore:

NO.

[ZargonX]

I haven't really been convinced:

No

[Theseus]

Yes.

Although Aeson's example was a stunning use of playing to a UU's strengths, the more basic strat of flooding the field with JW's during a GA should be available as well.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I'm playing a test game with 1.05 now, and have the Aztecs on my continent. We're around 1300BC, and I already had a war with them (I decided to warmonger in this game, well, it's Conquests after all). How comes I have seen plenty of Aztec warriors and Archers, but not a single Jaguar warrior yet? They've been the teeth of the Aztecs in Civ3 and PtW and it was a real challenge to attack them in the early game, because their capital was able to spit out 1-turn Jags. Why are they crippled like this in Conquests?

[alexman]

The reason is probably because they no longer replace the Warrior in the upgrade chain. I have seen the Aztecs build Jaguar Warriors as soon as they have already built a Warrior for garrison. That's a smart move IMO, because Warriors are cheaper. However, it's possible that the Aztecs stop building Jags after they have triggered their GA. Anyone else with experience in playing against the Aztecs?

[Harovan]

In my game, I (random, drew the Celts) have the Aztecs and the Americans on my continent. I had war with both, and can almost for sure say they haven't been at war with each other (unless they had one in the 3000BC's) and thus, the Aztecs didn't have their GA yet. What disturbed me most was, that they even used Warriors for exploraton, which doesn't make any sense.

[alexman]

Perhaps another debug game is in order to see what's going on. From what you say it sounds like a pretty good reason to put the Jaguar Warrior back into the Warrior upgrade chain...

[Harovan]

Update, ~900BC. Just finished the 2nd Aztec war. Killed ~6 Aztec warriors, 3 Aztec archers and ONE Jaguar Warrior, yet before he could trigger the Aztec GA. So you are right, it builds them. Not nearly enough to be of any significance, though.

[alexman]

I played a bit with the Aztecs and Incas in debug, and here's what happens.

They both build their UU (as well as Archers) when they need an offensive unit. When they need a defensive unit, they build Spearmen instead (or Warriors if they don't know Bronze, or if they need a unit immediately).

The problem is that at higher levels the AI starts with many offensive units already, so there is no hurry to build more. As a result, they can spend their entire expansion phase building nothing but Spearmen and Settlers.

When the expansion phase ends, both these civilizations start building their UU (intermixed with other offensive units), but then it's too late to make a difference.

In PTW the Aztecs started with a bunch of Jaguar Warriors, so that's why you saw them more often. They also built Jags for defense until they discovered Bronze Working.

[Harovan]

920AD. I finished the Aztecs off. Late, because I needed them as research partners until I made other contacts.

That one Jaguar Warrior I killed was the only one the Aztecs had in the entire game. I'm pretty sure, they never got a GA. They built two wonders (Oracle and Artemis), but that didn't help them either. They're not even religious anymore.

They did not build their UU after their expansion phase. Not a single one, despite the fact they had neither iron nor horses (it's Conquests after all). They built loads of Archers (which I killed later as Longbowmen), but not a single Jag.

Overall it was a pity to see the Aztecs that teethless. I think the JW should have its cost lowered to 10 and get in the Warrior upgrade path again. This is largely a single player mod, so I don't see any obstacle for that change.

[ducki]

In PTW the Aztecs started with a bunch of Jaguar Warriors

I was just going to suggest changing their starting units from warriors to jaggies.

Any support there?

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by ducki

I was just going to suggest changing their starting units from warriors to jaggies.

Any support there?

Support from me

[alexman]

Aztecs currently get Archers as offensive and Warriors as defensive starting units. I'm not sure how to make it so they start with Jaguar Warriors without altering upgrade paths, are you?

Perhaps the Jag should replace the Archer for the Aztecs? They both require Warrior Code in C3C.

[ducki]

Yes, I should have said let the Aztec have Jaggies as their offensive starter unit.

IMO, the Jaggie is far more valuable on the vast majority of maps for the Aztecs than Archers - as starting units.

Better in the same way that some here would much rather have a military comprised of Horsemen at 2-1-2 than Swordsmen at 3-2-1.

So I propose we replace the Aztec AIs starting Offensive units with Jaguar Warriors.

[alexman]

Never mind about the Archer replacement. That would limit choices for the human player, as Archers are often better for combat, while the 15-shield Jaguar is better for harassment.

By the way, this is a general problem with the AI. It seems that the AI does not value the movement factor highly enough when deciding which attacker to build. In this example it builds more Archers than Jags, but it also builds few horsemen compared to Swordsmen, for all civilizations, and too many Longbowmen when it can be building Knights.

[alexman]

Cross-posted: ducki, I know what you were proposing, I just don't know how to do it.

[ducki]

I know that I can give the AI a starting Army, so surely it's the same listbox, no? I'll look tonight.

Re: the crosspost, I figured you knew, but wanted to rephrase for anyone else that comes along, just to make it crystal clear. What can I say, I'm a programmer contractor.

[Krill]

well, why not give the JW the defense flag, so the AI picks them instead of normal warriors? (and make the JW upgrade to horseman. That would solve your problem, alex).

[ducki]

I think Jaggies should upgrade to swords, not horses.
Would the AI still explore and attack with Jaggies if they were flagged as defense?

[alexman]

Unlike offensive starting units, it seems that the defensive starting units are the units with the highest defensive strength (with a tie resolved in favor of the first unit in the editor). AI defensive flag does not matter. So the AI still starts with Archers and Warriors, even if Jaguar Warriors are marked as defensive...

[JimiD]

Whilst the next AU version is being considered, can I make a plea to get the jaguar looked at again:

As a SP I might play the Aztects 1/32, but I encounter them 1/4 (standard map etc), and I feel that the loss the of the jaguar from AI civs is too much to pay for balancing the Aztecs as a human civ, or to address MP concerns.

As an upgraded warrior, the jaguar is unique and powerful for early wars, but with early GA risks etc.

At present in C3C the jaguar is similar to the chariot and chasqui scout and the debate about tactics for the jag has echoed the dicussions on those units.

If the change made in C3C to the jaguar had been a AU proposal, would it have been accepted?

If not, can the change back to pre C3c be proposed not as a change from stock, and the presumption to do nothing, but a change back to stock and the presumption to do something?



This applies to SP only - MP I accept is different. Since there is discussion of a MP AU mod, and what differences from an SP version it would have, I would put this forward as an example.

[alexman]

The problem is that players can abuse the cheap Jaguar, even in SP. Ask Aeson.

There is no perfect solution, I agree, but since C3C and not PTW are the stock rules version of this mod, we need a good reason to make a change.

[pvzh]

Umm... Why not do something cute: make warriors upgrade to jags, so Aztecs will not have warriors period! To compensate for this, improve jags by adding +1 HP and/or defensive bombardment 1, 0-range, 1-RoF.

Price 15 shields is not that high penalty for swordsman upgrade, besides if you did not trigger you GA, you can build jag and upgrade it to swordsman without need to go into connect-disconnect iron.

Edit: I ran some calculations with CivIII Combat Calculator (v1.33)

Here are results: assuming that you want to rush spearmen defended town on flat terrain with regular fortified spearment

  
  



  

    

      
Experience
      
      
Result
      
      
Jag.
Warrior
      
      
Jag.
Warrior +1HP
      
      
Archer
      
    
    

      
Veteran
      
      
Win
      
      
19.5%
      
28%
      
      
50.85%
      
    
    

      
Loss
      
      
39.7%
      
37.8%
      
      
49.15%
      
    
    

      
Draw
      
      
40.8%
      
24.2%
      
      
N/A
      
    
    

      
Elite
      
      
Win
      
      
27.9%
      
36.6%
      
      
63.4%
      
    
    

      
Loss
      
      
33.15%
      
31.3%
      
      
36.6%
      
    
    

      
Draw
      
      
38.95%
      
32.1%
      
      
N/A
      
    
  

Obviously, with neither jags, your chances are fairly low to rush AI successfully on the Emperor and above, so I think it is safe to add both +1HP and defensive bombardment 1/0/1 (strength/range/RoF)

[joncnunn]

I was going to start a Jaguar Warrior thread when I noticed this one.

The AI in AU Mod 1.07 does not seem to build JWs at all even with no horses nor iron! I saw the Aztecs with Warriors, Archers, and Spear Men, but not a single JW!

Yet I think the cost of them is correct considering how good they are.

I propose in the interest of instructing the AI to build them that Warriors be simply removed from the list of units the Aztecs can build.

(Since the Aztecs start with Warrior Code, I think it's cleaner to simply remove it from the list of civs that can build warrior than to add warrior upgrade to Jaquar Warrior)

IMHO, this upholds the AU Mod principles of helping out the AI with minimum change. In fact this change is just back to what is was in Vanilla and PTW.