Mahler

[Agathon]

Stop turning what could be a sublime thread into a petty homofight.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Agathon
Stop turning what could be a sublime thread into a petty homofight.

Omigawd, whatwasIthinking, hetero threadjacks are so much more considered and definitely not mean or petty...

With all the atrocious puns in the first part of this thread, it has no chance of being sublime. So yank your 6th Symphony out of your tight browneye, Mary....

[monkspider]

I like Mahler's Fifth.

[Bereta_Eder]

I really need to start copying all those berlin phlarmonic CDs. They gave them away with sufficient newspaper cupons and a friend collected them all. 60 or 70 CDs in total.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Omigawd, whatwasIthinking, hetero threadjacks are so much more considered and definitely not mean or petty...

With all the atrocious puns in the first part of this thread, it has no chance of being sublime. So yank your 6th Symphony out of your tight browneye, Mary....

Yes, when people want to talk about their favourite composer it's so much better to have a sexuality pissing contest:

"Gay? You ain't gay."

"In your dreams boy, I am so gayer than you."

" If you're gay then so is Ted Nugent."

"Gay? You want gay? You bring your brother over here. I'll show you who's gay!!!"

I'd call it a petty **** measuring contest, but that would be tasteless and probably too close to the truth.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by monkspider
I like Mahler's Fifth.

Who doesn't? I still can't get past the old Barbirolli recording, one of his finest although the final movement is a bit of a let down.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Agathon




I'd call it a petty **** measuring contest, but that would be tasteless and probably too close to the truth.

Yes, just like the kind of thing that happens when straight men who ain't gettin' any (read: mostly sad married cases, cough, cough) ramble on about young nubiles and actresses in air steward uniforms.

Enuff a da threadjack- normal Symphonic service will be resumed, after this song from Zemlinsky.....

[Agathon]

You can tell I'm a Mahler freak. Here's my collection of recordings of the Symphonies and DLVDE (I think this is most of them, some are back in NZ and I've bought a lot over the years). I tend to favour older recordings.

#1. Kubelik (my absolute favourite #1); Kaspyzyck (sp.); Horenstein; Solti.

#2 Rattle (has no peer); Stokowski (was nearly 90 when he recorded this IIRC); Kaplan; Mehta (surprisingly good); Sherchen.; Solti.

#3. Horenstein (who has no peer in this work)

#4. Szell, Salonen, Wit

#5 Barbirolli, Mackerras, Rattle

#6 Boulez (I really like this one); Barbirolli, Szell, Karajan, Wit (really good for a Naxos).

#7 Abbado; Halasz (again really good for a Naxos).

#8 Segerstam (unconventional, but searing); Solti; Gielen.

#9 Barbirolli; Rattle; (still have to get the Klemperer - a friend of mine witnessed that recording and my grandmother met him a few times [Klemperer, not the friend]).

#10 Rattle

DLVDE Haitink; Walter; Wigglesworth (this is an arrangement for Chamber Orchestra, which is even more compelling than most).

[Boris Godunov]

I have three recordings of the Mahler 6, and two of them are the Bernsteins, and they're both still unsurpassed. The NYP recording is stellar for both its precision and Bernstein's special knack for Mahlerian histrionics. Some complain he's too hysterical--but the 6th is one symphony wherein hysterics are actually good. And he's certainly nowhere near as melodramatic as, say, Tennedset (sp). This one also has killer hammer blows, all three of them. Unfortunately, the analog sound isn't the best. It's due for a better remastering, IMO.

The Bernstein II is his live recording with the Vienna Phil in the 1980s. There's less of a sense of urgency than his earlier one, a lot more lingering over certain parts. And it works tremendously well. The sound quality and skill of the VPO is phenomenal, and the emotional intensity is pretty extreme. However, some of the tempos do seem to drag at times, and the final pizzicato A from the basses comes too soon. This one also has three hammer blows (any decent performance should), but they aren't as effective as the NYP recording.

The third I have is the Szell. It's also a live one, but suffers from some mediocre recording quality. It's a really good performance. There are a lot of ensemble problems though, which is very unusual for Szell. My quibbles are his abominably slow pace for the scherzo, and then his misplacement of the third hammer blow in the finale. He reinstates it, but puts it in the wrong spot! Mahler scored it to occur several bars after (Bernstein gets it right in both of his). I don't see any reason for Szell doing this.

I've listened to countless others. The Boulez is good, and the new Zander recording is even better. But if you want something that is really special, get the Sanderling recording. I plan to make that my next acquisition, if I can find it used.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I have three recordings of the Mahler 6, and two of them are the Bernsteins, and they're both still unsurpassed. The NYP recording is stellar for both its precision and Bernstein's special knack for Mahlerian histrionics. Some complain he's too hysterical--but the 6th is one symphony wherein hysterics are actually good. And he's certainly nowhere near as melodramatic as, say, Tennedset (sp). This one also has killer hammer blows, all three of them. Unfortunately, the analog sound isn't the best. It's due for a better remastering, IMO.

Isn't that an insertion by Bernstein? I seem to remember only two in the canonical score, although there are three blows of fate. Mind you it's a long time since I've listened to it. I haven't had enough time for Mahler in ages - or the equipment to do it justice.

I try to avoid Tennstedt. Ugh!

I'm guessing the Bernstein is on Sony (the old CBS recordings). Those are really good, my Dad had the Resurrection from that series which I really liked, but I had to divvy up the Mahler with my uncle after my Dad died and I like the Stokowski better (and it was part of a box set of spectacular stuff which I didn't want to break up).

Bernstein does tend to overdo things a bit for my tastes, but there is no question he is a fine Mahlerian.

The Bernstein II is his live recording with the Vienna Phil in the 1980s. There's less of a sense of urgency than his earlier one, a lot more lingering over certain parts. And it works tremendously well. The sound quality and skill of the VPO is phenomenal, and the emotional intensity is pretty extreme. However, some of the tempos do seem to drag at times, and the final pizzicato A from the basses comes too soon. This one also has three hammer blows (any decent performance should), but they aren't as effective as the NYP recording.

The later Bernstein recordings aren't so good (although his #1 is pretty good). Some of them suffer from strange recording balances. I believe his #2 was recorded in two different venues (one of which was Ely Cathedral).

The third I have is the Szell. It's also a live one, but suffers from some mediocre recording quality. It's a really good performance. There are a lot of ensemble problems though, which is very unusual for Szell. My quibbles are his abominably slow pace for the scherzo, and then his misplacement of the third hammer blow in the finale. He reinstates it, but puts it in the wrong spot! Mahler scored it to occur several bars after (Bernstein gets it right in both of his). I don't see any reason for Szell doing this.

Ah.. I was right about the hammer blow. I like the Szell although near the end of the first movement someone seems to be having a fit in the audience.

I've listened to countless others. The Boulez is good, and the new Zander recording is even better. But if you want something that is really special, get the Sanderling recording. I plan to make that my next acquisition, if I can find it used.

The Boulez #6 is far better than his #5 which I also have (I forgot it). Barbirolli takes it very very slow to begin with, which turns out to be quite effective. He does groan a bit though.

Do try to hear the Kubelik though. What he does with the strings in the finale will ruin you for any other recording.

There was a really great Mahler site run by a guy called Deryk Barker, but it seems to be down now. He had extensive Mahler recommendations and I discovered a couple of real gems through him (the Kubelik being one of them). The site appears in Google but I can't get it to load. Shame...

[Agathon]

I believe there is a #9 with Bernstein conducting the Berlin Philharmonic. How karajan ever let that happen is anyone's guess, but it is supposed to be very fine. That's on the list too.

[monkspider]

IIRC there are so many different variants of Mahler's work, no one can say what is an insertion anymore.

[Tiamat]

Yes, but there is to be something to be said for Bach's soothing of the soul. And I do find that he also encompases all human emotions. I'm classically trained Boris, but I will agree with you that Mahler is excellent, but there are so many more that meet his caliber as well. And let us not forget Motzart.

[Boris Godunov]

Mahler originally scored the finale of the 6th with 3 hammer strikes. Being somewhat superstitious, he couldn't bring himself to conduct the third hammer blow at the work's premier, believing it to be his own death. So he excised it from the score. However, subsequent editions have reinserted the third blow, which IMO is dramatically necessary for the full impact of the work. I have the reprint of the 1906 Nachfolger edition, with the third hammer blow in place. Most performances reinsert it, AFAIK. The new Zander recording has both versions of the finale, however--2 and 3 hammer blows. I find that rather silly, as we're talking adding a half hour of the same music just to accomodate a few seconds of music.

But this is what makes the Szell third hammer blow so odd--it's decidedly in the wrong spot, by ANY score. I suppose it's dramatically effective, but I think it is such in the correct place, too. So I just scratch my head at that one.

And the hammer blows are the blows of fate, not the "horror" chord that opens the movement (which appears a total of 4 times, actually).

The other performance vagary of the 6th is the order of the inner movements. The normal performance order is the scherzo second and andante third, but sometimes these are flipped. Mahler himself did this after the work had premiered, being his usual somewhat insecure and indecisive self. However, it's rare that conductors follow his seeming final wishes, and the original order is usually preserved. IMO, that's best, and Mahler was wrong to reverse the order of the movements. From a dramatic standpoint, you simply must have the andante preceeding the finale. The andante is the respite, the lull in the storm. Its beauty should be shattered by the opening dischord of the finale. This makes the finale all the more powerful.

Bernstein was, IMO, the greatest Mahlerian of his day. While the later recordings in general aren't his best work, the 6th with the VPO is truly exceptional. The earlier recordings on Sony are from the 1960s. You can buy the complete set of symphonies for US$70 on Amazon.com, I believe. They're worth it. Particularly noted is the 7th, which is generally regarded as the finest Mahler 7 recorded. The 7th is probably Mahler's least popular symphony, but Bernstein thoroughly owned it.

[Agathon]

I avoid buying complete sets of Mahler symphonies. I have yet to find anyone with enough consistency to pull it off.

If you like Mahler's grand style you should try listening to Havergal Brian's Symphony No. 1 "Gothic". Now there's someone who didn't do things by halves.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

And the hammer blows are the blows of fate, not the "horror" chord that opens the movement (which appears a total of 4 times, actually).

Isn't this being picky? Didn't Mahler say that the hero receives three blows of fate even though it is a fact only two hammer blows were finally scored?

I mean # 2 opens around a grave acc. to some accounts, but there is no literal grave.

edit: I had a look around and that's what Mahler said.

I also came across this gem about the 6th from one of your enemies.

There's a tightrope to walk between honesty and hysteria, emotional blackness and emotional blackmail...between Boulez and Bernstein, if you want me to come right out and say it.

That's unfair, but...

[Spiffor]

Why isn't Jamski (our most devot Mahler-lover) spamming this thread?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
Isn't this being picky? Didn't Mahler say that the hero receives three blows of fate even though it is a fact only two hammer blows were finally scored?

Since there are four iterations of the opening horror chord, saying they are the three blows of fate is rather nonsensical. The hammer blows are the fate blows, because they come as the music is trying to cadence in the major. It's the possibility of impending joy being crushed by a blow of fate, which sends things crashing back into the minor key tumult.

I've no doubt Mahler said three because initially there were three. His removal of the third wasn't done for artistic purposes, but rather out of his own superstition

That's unfair, but...

Who is this enemy? I will smite him.

Bernstein isn't too "hysterical" for the 6th, IMO. The 6th calls for hysteria! It's perhaps the symphony most suited to his particular brand of histrionicism!

I only wish Furtwangler had conducted the Mahler symphonies. I can't imagine the hair-raising results that would have occured.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Since there are four iterations of the opening horror chord, saying they are the three blows of fate is rather nonsensical. The hammer blows are the fate blows, because they come as the music is trying to cadence in the major. It's the possibility of impending joy being crushed by a blow of fate, which sends things crashing back into the minor key tumult.

I've no doubt Mahler said three because initially there were three. His removal of the third wasn't done for artistic purposes, but rather out of his own superstition

Don't accuse me of confusing the blows of fate with something else.

I never said that. I've just wondered if the third blow was supposed to be implied rather than experienced - I didn't think it was something else in the score. I'm perfectly happy to concede your point if that was Mahler's reasoning, but I can imagine that this has been furiously debated on Mahler message boards (and people think that Poly debates are venomous).

Anyway...

You provide no evidence, you provide NOTHING... and yet you want to accuse people of confusing the figurative with the literal in the works of a late romantic composer... you criminal.

Who is this enemy? I will smite him.

Some hack reviewing Tilson Thomas's recording for the BBC. Prophetically, he also said something like "Lenny's hordes would rush to his defence foaming at the mouth. "

Looks like he was right.

Bernstein isn't too "hysterical" for the 6th, IMO. The 6th calls for hysteria! It's perhaps the symphony most suited to his particular brand of histrionicism!

If any symphony is suited to that.

At least we've found another button to push along with the tired old Brahms button (BTW - I thought Molly was unfair to Brahms - it's not my cup of tea, but I wouldn't call it slop).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Agathon
You provide no evidence, you provide NOTHING... and yet you want to accuse people of confusing the figurative with the literal in the works of a late romantic composer... you criminal.

[Asher]

Was Mahler cute?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Agathon

At least we've found another button to push along with the tired old Brahms button (BTW - I thought Molly was unfair to Brahms - it's not my cup of tea, but I wouldn't call it slop).

Oh dear- shall I post 'Warning! Heavy Irony!' or 'Jolly Jape Coming' before making provocative comments?

Brahms ain't my demi-tasse of ristretto in classical music-I happen to be passionate about Baroque and Early Music, especially choral and church music. I don't think Brahms is slop, 'twas simply a goad to Barearse Grabenuff.

And I liked Abbess Hildegard of Bingen before the frickin' frackin' New Agers found out about her, and I had a substantial collection of Gregorian chant and Byzantine and Mozarabic choral works well before that Enigma guy popularized it. The virtues of a Catholic education and participation in the church and school choir.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher
Was Mahler cute?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
Don't accuse me of confusing the blows of fate with something else.

You said there were four, so I had to think you've confused them with something else. There are only three instances in the movement where it attempts to cadence in the major. If you had a score I could direct you to the exact measures where they occur.

There are four iterations of the horror chord, however. Only three of those have the tam-tam crash, though. So it's understandable people could construe those as the blows of fate, but they aren't.

I'm perfectly happy to concede your point if that was Mahler's reasoning, but I can imagine that this has been furiously debated on Mahler message boards (and people think that Poly debates are venomous).

In this instance, there isn't much debate that I've seen--it's well-known why Mahler excised the third blow.

Unfortunately, a lot of what we "know" about Mahler's own meanings are given to us by that lying slut Alma, so it's hard to discern what's his thinking and what's hers.

Some hack reviewing Tilson Thomas's recording for the BBC. Prophetically, he also said something like "Lenny's hordes would rush to his defence foaming at the mouth. "

Looks like he was right.

I'm not one of "Lenny's hordes" by any means. Just ask me what I think about his late Brahms recordings with the VPO. *puke* I don't like, in most instances, what Bernstein does with tempos, although you have to admit he gets amazing sound from the orchestras. But his Mahler 6th is special, and I think it stands as the greatest recorded interpretation of the work available, whether it's "purist" in performance or not. Of course, I have a particular disdain for musical purists.

At least we've found another button to push along with the tired old Brahms button (BTW - I thought Molly was unfair to Brahms - it's not my cup of tea, but I wouldn't call it slop).

I knew molly was just tweaking me. Attempting to, at least. But it's water off a duck's back. How can I get angry, when I'm really just full of pity and sadness for those who can't experience Brahms as I do?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

You said there were four, so I had to think you've confused them with something else. There are only three instances in the movement where it attempts to cadence in the major. If you had a score I could direct you to the exact measures where they occur.

There are four iterations of the horror chord, however. Only three of those have the tam-tam crash, though. So it's understandable people could construe those as the blows of fate, but they aren't.

Nope, I didn't say that. Here's what I said about the blows of fate.

Isn't that an insertion by Bernstein? I seem to remember only two in the canonical score, although there are three blows of fate. Mind you it's a long time since I've listened to it. I haven't had enough time for Mahler in ages - or the equipment to do it justice

BTW I think four blows of fate would be excessive.

In this instance, there isn't much debate that I've seen--it's well-known why Mahler excised the third blow.

Unfortunately, a lot of what we "know" about Mahler's own meanings are given to us by that lying slut Alma, so it's hard to discern what's his thinking and what's hers.

Presumably he meant the third to be implied, or it would be dumb to have kept the same program. Something like - there are three blows, but I can't bring myself to score the third.

I'm not one of "Lenny's hordes" by any means. Just ask me what I think about his late Brahms recordings with the VPO. *puke* I don't like, in most instances, what Bernstein does with tempos, although you have to admit he gets amazing sound from the orchestras. But his Mahler 6th is special, and I think it stands as the greatest recorded interpretation of the work available, whether it's "purist" in performance or not. Of course, I have a particular disdain for musical purists.

Oh there's no doubt he's a great conductor. I have a wonderful CD of Copland's music by him which I would not part with.

[/QUOTE]I knew molly was just tweaking me. Attempting to, at least. But it's water off a duck's back. How can I get angry, when I'm really just full of pity and sadness for those who can't experience Brahms as I do? [/QUOTE]

Some of us like a bit more edge and uncertainty than Brahms provides.

[Agathon]

Actually looking around for a copy of the Bernstein I've discovered that my old record shop in NZ (pus cds) has now gone online (it's partly owned by the guy I told you about who saw Klemperer do his famous ninth).

Excellent. I might start ordering from them again.