4th MP tournament (or should that be 2nd?) - Page 3

Gramphos · February 15, 2004, 16:26

I'm all for randmom maps, I just need more playhours to build up a strategy that works well and is adaptive.

sabrewolf · February 15, 2004, 17:29

i didn't have a great start (no bonus resources) and iron was quite far away too. but at least i had fresh water and ivory very near.

also, gramphos didn't use his UU (javelin thrower) early enough. as a matter of fact, i declared war... when i had 5 ancient cavalries and plenty of immortals. he fended off my first wave without too many losses on his side, but my next wave took out his first city. my catapults had been very ineffective in the beginning, but then one actually destroyed the city walls. from then on, it was a lot easier.

i had a very wierd bug in one off my cities. it actually starved until size 2 because of "we can't forgive the cruelties". BUT... i hadn't pop-rushed anything in that city. can someone explain, what could have gone wrong?

as for this tournament. i'm not so sure, how many games i can play. yesterday an unfinished game against FP after about 3 hours), today it took about another 3-4 hours for the game (would have taken a lot longer, if i'd had to fight off the zulu's after that). i'd recommend for the future switching back to cup-system or give more time all together. how are other matches going on?

Gramphos · February 15, 2004, 17:34

Yes, I've never actually played Mayan before. Thought I needed an early UU, but after the initial 30 turns they already felt outdated. (I think accelerated production might have something to do with that. For my next game I will select a civ with a little later UU)

notyoueither · February 15, 2004, 18:25

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf
i had a very wierd bug in one off my cities. it actually starved until size 2 because of "we can't forgive the cruelties". BUT... i hadn't pop-rushed anything in that city. can someone explain, what could have gone wrong?

as for this tournament. i'm not so sure, how many games i can play. yesterday an unfinished game against FP after about 3 hours), today it took about another 3-4 hours for the game (would have taken a lot longer, if i'd had to fight off the zulu's after that). i'd recommend for the future switching back to cup-system or give more time all together. how are other matches going on?

1st question, unhappiness will jump from city A to city B when city A is destroyed or abandoned. City B would be the closest city to city A.

2nd question, the important thing is that the games are being played. If the deadline is too short, and none of us have completed all our games, then we can consider that as the end draws near. The next important thing is that there be an end, unlike 2 of the previous tournies that are still left unfinished.

We only need to play 4 games each. We have another month, and you are done or near done 2 of yours. I think you are on the right track to finish all your games.

Once we finish this one, we can move on to another and meet more and different players. If we get at least 8 players, then we can go to a simpler system of single knock-out progressing towards a final. The really important thing is to play some games and have fun while perhaps learning something along the way.

notyoueither · February 15, 2004, 18:31

nm

sabrewolf · February 15, 2004, 19:59

here's the more detailed AAR.

settings: tiny pangea, gramphos as maya, me as persia.
all else random. it turned out to be zero barbarian activity, so also no goody huts. (luckily i didn't take an expansionist civ)

well, i started off near the western end at the coast in a juicy hilly region. no resources except one useless tabacco. at least i a lake which would mean no aqueduct needed. but my cities never grew over 6 (the war started too early to need larger cities)

my first two warriors scouted west and south (peninsula with ivory) then north. i saw gramphos' mayans early on and tried to scout regions he hadn't yet gone to (hoping for earlier AI contact).

i started researching pottery, then IW. nearest iron turned out
to be approx. 8 tiles north, but lots of hills and forests between, so it would take a long time to get there. after that, alphabet and maths soonafter.

my second city was on the ivory spot. i WANTED that statue and i needed it i am usually a builder and bad at attacking early, planning upgrades, etc. together with immortals (cheaper earlier medieval infantry) i was hoping to finish him before he gets to feudalism.

here's my first screenie (3100 BC):

4 visible luxuries, but 2 of them not on my direct path (fortunatly, another source of dyes near my iron.

third city was going to be my iron city. no growth possible there, but i needed the iron for my immortals.

the next two cities were east and northeast of my capital. don't laugh about my placing... in MP i didn't have much time to think and i wanted to have fast unit movement (3 roaded tiles between).

the eastern city was building barracks, when copàn's borders expanded. so i switched to temple.

two warriors staid fortified in mayan space (oh, i love not having to remove the units from territory

).

next screenshot (1950 BC):

while my capital kept producing settlers to keep size beneath 7, every other city were pumping out spearmen and immortals.

my researches were quite successful. currency brought me polytheism and HBR from the mayans and construction from the romans.

around 1700 BC, i started moving my first stack of doom towards copan. about 10 immortals, 5 ancient cavalry, 4 spearmen, an archer and 3 catapults. i was quite unfortunate with promotions and RNG with this stack but i could save all catapults and some units. my workers built a road for replacements and soon after my next (smaller) SoD moved in. this time i cut him off from reinforcements (suicide horseman pillaged the only road into copan), was lucky that my (now 8) catapults took down his walls and got the city (and abandonned it because i was worried of flipping).

at this point, gramphos, i'd recommend you connecting your border cities better.

next screenshot (850 BC):

when i saw all the unirrigated plains, i began realising, why i hadn't been attacked before. i presumed there was no fresh water which basicly meant, his agricultural trait was useless (like my scientific trait... no SGL and only one library).

with monotheism and feudalism i paid the bribe the zulu wanted and got them into the war against maya.

next screenshot shows the stack which continued on (850 BC):

again, the stack was too small and i could have saved a lot if i would have taken enough time to bombard the city down for a few turn. but my turns were taking way longer than gramphos'.

end part 1

sabrewolf · February 15, 2004, 20:26

part 2

his second city went after a fight, but fortunatly he had no forces to counterattack me. my units were so weakened that they would have been sitting ducks.

tikal (his mountain city) was too much of a risk. after i cut him off from the road network and seeing that he wouldn't be able to grow fast enough to replace cities elsewhere or produce a lot. so i went south. if having to attack a hill city, at least one worth it.
palenque fell with surprisingly few losses. i through all at him, lost most immortals, but knights and ACs survived thanks to retreat. with my last unit with more than 2 HPs (iirc), i took the city.

with 4-5 knights reinforcement and recovered units, i continued south to yaochitan (i can't read the city names well after scaling them) and again went all or nothing. i could have waited for the ACs and knights following or being produced, but that would have meant approx 6 more turns. for the last city (not on hills), i was quite lucky with the RNG.

luckily, i also saw a blue ship moving past the coast. with this information, i confronted gramphos, if he wanted to continue, because i guess it was getting a bit tedious for both (me playing, him waiting) and he resigned.

next screenshot (590 BC):

btw: the zulu were throwing endless impis and archers against tikal but i never saw them killing a single unit. i would have attacked if the pikeman had been redlined, but i didn't need to worry about counterattacks now.

last two screenies (590 BC)

zulu were ahaid by points and had better land than me.

if anyone feels like playing an SP game against them, here's the last autosave:

sabrewolf · February 15, 2004, 20:35

ps, autosave needs to be loaded with newest patch.

thanks for a good game, gramphos. i learned a lot here. it was my 3rd MP game after a half yesterday against FP and a short one against unknown people (when i lost connection after a certain amount of turns).

fortunatly for me, you played a typical SP game. i however for the first time went warmongering. only 1 library, 2 temples, 2 courthouses, no marketplaces, no cathedrals, no aqueducts, etc.

for the first time, unit costs were killing me. i had to drop research to 10% to have enough money!

in your cities however i found aqueducts. your city spacing is the same as i would do in SP, but you could have stuffed in some more, even just for the sake of pumping out some more spearmen and workers.

but i guess the main reason i won this one fairly easy was because you had no fresh water.

sabrewolf · February 15, 2004, 20:44

ok, my last post for today, even though i feel i'm spamming. (but taking a look in the community forum shows that i'm not

)

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
1st question, unhappiness will jump from city A to city B when city A is destroyed or abandoned. City B would be the closest city to city A.

ah, damn... and why did it keep getting stronger? is it like war weariness? why were more people affected than the city i abandoned had?

Quote:

2nd question, the important thing is that the games are being played. If the deadline is too short, and none of us have completed all our games, then we can consider that as the end draws near. The next important thing is that there be an end, unlike 2 of the previous tournies that are still left unfinished.

We only need to play 4 games each. We have another month, and you are done or near done 2 of yours. I think you are on the right track to finish all your games.

Once we finish this one, we can move on to another and meet more and different players. If we get at least 8 players, then we can go to a simpler system of single knock-out progressing towards a final. The really important thing is to play some games and have fun while perhaps learning something along the way.

"only" 4 games

i was reckoning i would play just 1 game and be gone after 1 hour.

well, the coming two weeks are a bit busy for me. i've got to move all my furniture, clean the flat thouroughly (sp?), organise and prepare my master thesis and work... i'm not sure if i can fit in a whole game before the last weekend of this month. if i can get my last 2 games (nye&snotty) in that weekend (28+29th feb), i'll manage it on time...

ok, good night everyone...

notyoueither · February 15, 2004, 21:43

We all agreed to push back the deadline to March 14 before we began. We thought that 4 games in 4 weeks might be too tight.

A given level of unhappiness will yield different percentages of unhappiness due to reason x according to city size. When you are at a given level of WW, all your 4 pop cities might say 16% 'Give Peace a Chance', but all your 5 pop ciites might say 20% peaceniks.

Gramphos · February 16, 2004, 02:17

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf
settings: tiny pangea, gramphos as inca, me as persia.
all else random.

Hey, I was Mayan.

Gramphos · February 16, 2004, 02:29

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf
fortunatly for me, you played a typical SP game. i however for the first time went warmongering. only 1 library, 2 temples, 2 courthouses, no marketplaces, no cathedrals, no aqueducts, etc.

Like I said this was my first MP game, and I have learnt a lot from it.
I should have had a stack of Javeline Throwers ready to take your Iron city on turn 31 before you could start to pump out immortals.

Quote:

in your cities however i found aqueducts. your city spacing is the same as i would do in SP, but you could have stuffed in some more, even just for the sake of pumping out some more spearmen and workers.

I built the aqueducts just to have something to poprush the turn before you would thake the cities I knew I would lose to give you more unhappiness.

I really wanted to build more cities, and could probably have fit in at least two more in the area south of the mountains. But for more than that I would have to cross the mountain ridge either in NW, were you exxectivly stopped me as I was about to, or in NE were there weren't must useful terreain that not already were taken by the Romans or Zulu.

notyoueither · February 20, 2004, 00:30

PMs sent to see if we can get some more matches in this weekend.

Gramphos · February 20, 2004, 04:47

Any time in range 17 - 22 GMT today, 11 - 18 Saturday and Sunday, but no more than one game. (And I would like to know about it sometime forehand). The next weekend will I only be able to play on Sunday, and the weekend after I have not to play at all (due to math exam on Monday)

notyoueither · February 20, 2004, 05:21

OK, Gramphos. We'll see who can meet up with F-P and then me for games across the pond, then we will see if we can get you in a game this weekend.

We really should see if we can get some of the games in similar time zones resolved during the week, but we'll do whatever we can. Maybe I'll do the same thing for the weekdays, not just the weekends.

Gramphos · February 20, 2004, 06:14

As it is right now weekdays is not an option for me. I'm mostly at university from 8 in the morning to 7 in the evening local time. (today is an execption, and I'll not go until in a few minutes

)

Gramphos · February 20, 2004, 06:16

Oh, and BTW, cancel my time for today. I figured I'm out of milk again, so I need the evening for shoping.

sabrewolf · February 20, 2004, 07:39

as i wrote a few posts above, this weekend is impossible for me because i'm moving house.

sorry...

Snotty · February 20, 2004, 09:07

If my friend cannot find the cd by tomorrow morning I will be buying a new one. Im free most of sat, although sat night will probably be busy. Sunday I will be around, but have stuff to do. If I manage to get everything done then I will post my availability.

Gramphos · February 20, 2004, 17:34

If nothing is schudled for me by tomowwor morning I'll spend the day at university, meaning no game for me.

notyoueither · February 20, 2004, 19:41

I'd like to hear from F-P, but I will post and PM again this evening my time one way or the other.

Fried-Psitalon · February 20, 2004, 21:02

I can be free Saturday evening from 6 EST until some obscene hour after which you SP weenies pass out and I grab my 10th mountain dew.

::grins evilly and lobs another few SP barbs in for good measure::

See you Saturday night.

notyoueither · February 20, 2004, 23:03

OK, looks like Snotty should meet up with Gramphos Saturday if possible and Sunday if needed. Maybe you two should trade PMs or posts here with a view towards a meeting in the evening if Snotty can do that, so that Gramphos can get some work done at school during the day.

I will endeavour to teach F-P some manners.

notyoueither · February 22, 2004, 00:00

Conceded the game to F-P after about 3 hours in game after the capital fell to knights and his gf arrived home.

My Egyptians did not do too well in adjusting to the probes of the Chasqui Scouts early and the lack of iron and horses later against horsemen. A reserve of archers did finally win some glory for Pharaoh, but at a very late date... too late to really turn the tide.

A slow turn clock took a bit of getting used to, but it is quite manageable. Hopefully I will do better next time.

Gramphos · February 22, 2004, 03:47

I'm home today. if anyone wants to start a game try to message me over ICQ if I'm online.

Gramphos · February 22, 2004, 15:43

I'm currently playing against F-P. And so far F-P has effectivly stopped me from getting iron. (Very good play from his side (or bad by me

))

Gramphos · February 22, 2004, 16:26

F-P won the game since I had niether horses nor iron. However, I had the best start, and should have epanded more to the southbefore F-P could get there by boat and block the great terrain to two iron deposits, and two horses as well as wines and furs. Which togeteher with the spice and dyes I had in my Capital radius would have made me very strong.

A great game. F-P was better than me and saw my weakness (or what would have been the end of him if I had expanded a little faster)

Gramphos · February 22, 2004, 16:43

Look at this great starting position. This was the third try at starting (first crashed and second F-P had an unplayable start)

I had quite good starts all these three times, so I guess the RNG wanted to be nice to me today.

At the end of the game my Capital were pumping out one spearman (yes, like I said I had no resources) each turn, but it wasn't ennough to stand up against the Medieval infantry and nightst of F-P playing as Inca.

He used his scout wisely and found out that my closest Iron were 13 tiles away from me, quite close to the closest horses.

Also the only way to get there were over my territory. Once F-P figured this out (before me since I didn't explore mush further south than the iron (due to barbarian activity that killed my warraiors I explored with)) he must have focused on getting MapMaking and get a stack of archers over to my spearman guarding the iron, kinning it and then found a city on that iron.

F-P also had contact with both the arabs and babylonians, while I only had contact with the Babylonians (and at first with nobody) which meant that he could advance faster than me in the tech tree in the beginnng, and I got stuck at the bottom of the tech race.

notyoueither · February 22, 2004, 18:45

Yep, F-P is a bit of a bother with those scouts and then 'choking' his opponent. REXing towards resources becomes a priority that cannot be ignored (as it should be against human).

He's getting a lot of good fortune with the map generator though, seeing as our game had iron about 10 tiles from my capital and on the wrong side of a jungle. Horses were a bit further out of my reach even though they were closer... stupid Zulu. Although I could have done a much better job of getting there to secure the iron and then taking the horses from the Zulu.

How bad was his first start?

Fried-Psitalon · February 22, 2004, 19:03

I'm not sure you'd call that game's map "good fortune" for me - I had a huge jungle east and west, plains north - and Babylon and Arabia both immediately in my face. Gram had a large area with a small bottleneck, and a huge peninsula south of him. Respectfully, the starting conditions were such that he should have triumphed - he was outplayed. In your game more aggressive early expansion to the south and sentries would've allowed you to respond more quickly to my actions and secure the resources I was working to deny you. You may have had jungle north, but you had lovely land south.

There's a lot more to MP than I think is being appreciated, particularly in the tactics department - it was definitely tactics and not building that won me the game against Gramphos.

My first start - the unplayable - was 10 tiles of grass (no rivers) and 5 of tundra in my immediate area at the extreme southern end of a peninsula - north was a 6 deep 3 wide marsh, with the mayan AI immediately on the other side of the marsh and no area for me to "Sneak by" in - his capital radius straddled the exit to the marsh entirely.