Only fairies have wings

Plotinus · January 19, 2004, 07:19

What, if any, strategic use do Helicopters and Paratroopers have? I really want to use them - because I want there to be a wider range of strategies than the simple "build your most powerful unit and hit people with it" - but I have never been able to bring myself to build any of them. They simply seem too weak.

Take the Modern Paratrooper. You get this fellow at the same time as Modern Armor, and he costs almost as much. Yet, apart from the parachuting ability, he's identical to an Infantry - indeed, a shade weaker. Why on earth would I want to build him when I could have a Modern Armor, or at least a Mechanised Infantry?

I simply cannot see the point of a unit that can land deep in enemy territory. It seems obvious to me that when you are invading the enemy, you need to build on what you already have - so you attack units or cities that are next to your borders, or, if invading a continent, you establish a beachhead and then seek to expand outwards from that. This technique means that your attacking units have hostile territory on at most three sides. But those Paratroopers, dropped into the heart of the enemy territory, are completely surrounded. What are they going to achieve that you couldn't do by conventional means, by continuing a land-based expansion from the territory you have already conquered? They're not powerful enough to attack anything, and they probably can't do any pillaging because they move only one space per turn and the enemy will have Infantry guarding any pillage-worthy tiles as it is. They can only sit there and, possibly, divert some of the enemy's forces into attacking them rather than going for your main invasion force. That doesn't seem to me to be a very good strategy, and I suspect the Paratroopers themselves would agree. Why have a Paratrooper somewhere being attacked by the enemy when you could have a Modern Armor in with your main force doing the attacking?

The same with Helicopters. They can only carry infantry units. That means that the most powerful unit you can ferry with them is the TOW Infantry. But why go to all the trouble of building a helicopter to drop these guys off in order - at best - to sit on a mountain and fortify somewhere when you could be building more conventional attacking units?

Has anyone worked out a good strategy for using these things, or are they essentially a nice idea with no practical purpose at all?

Aqualung71 · January 19, 2004, 07:43

I think they're there so we can scratch our heads in amazement when the AI builds them and drops them off in our territory as MGL generating fodder for our MA!

I built a chopper and a paratrooper once....dropped him off somewhere and then notified his family. I think the chopper came back and went rusty.

CerberusIV · January 19, 2004, 07:54

Helicopters and TOW is a useful (in particular circumstances) way of getting a garrison unit into a cpatured city before rushing an airport. If you rebase a pre-loaded helicopter to the city and unload the units they can fortify. Possibly worthwhile if you expect an attempt to retake the city and don't want your MA or marines to be the ones attacked.

Paratroopers of either variety? Why indeed?

In the WWII in the Pacific scenario the Japanese start with paratroops but their usefulness is limited as they can't drop into undefended cities and capture them - they have to drop adjacent and the defending AI may have rushed a unit before your next turn so your paratrooper is stranded.

ChrisiusMaximus · January 19, 2004, 08:25

Only use Ive ever made of paratroops in civ 3 is as a decoy to get the AI to send his units the wrong way, or for pillageing.

They are nowhere near as useful as the paratroopers and helo's in civ2 and thats a shame.

MattPilot · January 19, 2004, 11:07

paratroopers are very useful, mind you!

Lets examine - they got a 'relative' strong defense and they got a zone of control.

The point of a paratrooper (in this game) is to drop them behind enemy lines to CUT OFF re-supply routes to cities your trying to capture.

Assume your trying to invade this one city - you either capture it or you dont, doesn't matter - What you do know is that your gonna get a counter attack. How do you weaken this counter attack and slow it down, or even stop it? How do you stop the city your trying to capture to resupply with strong units? Why with paratroopers of course!

This is how you use them - drop them off at choke points (to block the entrence completely), or when the the land mass is wide and vast, drop them 1 space apart to create a barrier. If the terrain your paratroopers are on is insignificant to the AI, it will just pass on by and move to the city thats being attacked. But to get there, it must pass through the zone of control of your paratroopers - and i'm sure you know what that means. I've often successfully put 2 rings of paratroopers around a batch of cities that i wanted to take. Though those operations usually require 10-20 paratroopers. Now, if the AI decides to forget about hte cities and take on your paratroopers, well then you got a good chance of reducing the enemies numbers. While your probably gonna lose alot of paratroopers, all those enemy units that attacked your 'troopers, can't attack your invading force anymore.

There is another usage, that i've used quite effectively. If i'm gonna be in a longer war, i drop a lot of paratroopers on productive cells of one single city to starve it to death. Though this is only a good idea if your trying to raze the city later on.

But i do agree that paratroopes should have more ability. Thats why i've given them 2 movement points in my mod. While they can't move on the turn they jumped at, they can pillage and move after that. Making them much more useful!

vmxa1 · January 19, 2004, 13:23

About the only use I have had for Para's is in a game recently. I had one (actually 2) civ on a 3 tile island since ancinet time. They kept teming up with my main rivial and I finally got sick of it.

I did not want to make transports, so I just drop a few para's on them. They were still using spears.

I had actually nuked them both once.

Plotinus · January 19, 2004, 13:42

Quote:

[SIZE=1] they got a zone of control.

Now that is interesting. I didn't know that, despite my obsessive manual-reading - could this be another thing that didn't make the manual?

I don't actually know about Zone of Control in Civ3. Is it the same as in the original Civ? In that game, a unit was not allowed to move from a tile adjacent to a foreign unit into a tile adjacent to a foreign unit (whether or not the two foreign units were one and the same, whether or not they were from the same civ, and whether or not you were at peace or war with them). This meant that troops in the field could be very effective at blocking the enemy without having to occupy every tile.

If Paratroopers work like that then it does indeed increase their strategic possibilities. This must be looked into.

MattPilot · January 19, 2004, 14:56

not quite. Zone of control is different in Civ3. Btw, the manual hasn't published a lot of things. Best thing to do is check the rules in the editor.

Anyway, the way it works is that units with a zone of control can take free shots at passing units. However, for the pot shot to occur, the enemy unit must be WITHIN one of the 8 surrounding squares of the paratrooper, and move TO another square that is sourrounding the same unit. Simply a enemy unit moving from a distant square to a square next to the paratrooper (and same goes for moving away) does not give you the free shot.

I've successfully gotten 2 free shots from one paratroopers at passing units by placing him in a nice location where units first moved from TOp right, to middle right (First shot), then from middle right to bottom right (second shot).

Not every free shot gives you a hit, but the chance is quite high (not sure how high though). But if you got lots of paratroopers creating zones of controls that the enemy must pass through to defend the city, they will most likely all be at half strengh, or even lower when they arrive. Though I don't know about a 'free shot' killing passing units who only have one bar left; I have never experienced it.

steven8r · January 19, 2004, 15:44

They don't require Aluminum.

geniemalin · January 19, 2004, 23:27

SMAC Drop Troops could be used to capture cities, but the 'kill defenders with air power then throw in a drop garrison' tactic was overpowered, and I can see why (now that Bombers have lethal land bombard) they didn't want to repeat it.

OTOH, I agree that as they are their uses are very limited - mostly as already noted as reinforcements for a just-acquired city. If they could pillage after landing (even if they couldn't attack/take cities) they might be good resource-disconnecters and havin a few (even if they would invariably die the turn after landing) might force the opponent to garrison resources rather than leaving them open.

Historically IIRC paratroopers were used for hard-to-reach limited tactical objectives, and the ability to take out ungarrisoned inland radar towers/strategic/luxury resources would reasonably simulate that IMHO.

MrWhereItsAt · January 20, 2004, 06:11

Quote:

Originally posted by MattPilot

Anyway, the way it works is that units with a zone of control can take free shots at passing units. However, for the pot shot to occur, the enemy unit must be WITHIN one of the 8 surrounding squares of the paratrooper, and move TO another square that is sourrounding the same unit. Simply a enemy unit moving from a distant square to a square next to the paratrooper (and same goes for moving away) does not give you the free shot.

A little OT here, but what if a unit passed from a tile to another tile where two or more units of yours could fire on it with ZOC? Would each unit eligible get the shot, or does just one?

CerberusIV · January 20, 2004, 07:08

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt

A little OT here, but what if a unit passed from a tile to another tile where two or more units of yours could fire on it with ZOC? Would each unit eligible get the shot, or does just one?

Hard to tell. I have never seen this but the free shot doesn't always take effect. If the moving unit passes through the ZOC of another unit after taking a hit from the first one, it can be hit again AFAIK. Whether this works if the 2 ZOC units fire simultaneously I don't know.

gunkulator · January 20, 2004, 15:36

For pillaging, build a couple Infantry, or Mech Infantry plus 3 or 4 Explorers. Transport to AI mountainous land far from the front, preferably near the AI's capital. Pillage away. Unlike Paratroopers, Explorers can move onto any terrain, pillage it and then move back to the Infantry stack all in one turn.

Sometimes the AI attacks your Infantry, which is good because it keeps those units away from the front. If the AI kills all your defenders, no biggie, all they get is a few lousy Explorers.

vmxa1 · January 20, 2004, 15:42

MrWhereItsAt I am pretty sure I saw a calv shot a passing unit and then a tank army shot it as well.

MrWhereItsAt · January 21, 2004, 02:48

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
MrWhereItsAt I am pretty sure I saw a calv shot a passing unit and then a tank army shot it as well.

vmxa - was the second shot before the passing unit moved again, ie that the two ZOC shots happened after only ONE move of the enemy unit?

Plotinus · January 23, 2004, 11:09

Strange this zone of control thing - I did wonder on a few occasions precisely which rules were allowing enemy units to take pot-shots at me whilst going past them. I can see this give Paratroopers a use - essentially giving the enemy something to think about before getting to the front. The idea of using Helicopters to provide cover for Explorers nipping out and pillaging is intriguing too...

MoonWolf · January 23, 2004, 13:23

I liked the Civ2-way where the paratrooper had one movement after landing. At least it should be able to able to attack from the air, maybe at reduced rate. How it is now, you loose the unit if an enemy unit occoupy the square and you try to land there. Am not sure about radars and outpost.

And I think they should be able to capture empty cities even if they can't move after landing. I think especially during WW2 paratroopers where used to capture enemy cities some times.

Tattila the Hun · January 24, 2004, 18:31

What bothers me with helos, is that they don't take the troops back after combat. Imagine in Vietnam, troops are brought to fight, then the choppers head home to take a nap or something, never returning to pick up the guys they just left at the jungle.

Chemical Ollie · January 30, 2004, 07:51

I have found helicopter insertation of TOW infantry useful to capture islands and remote cities which are hard to reach due to rough terrain. These cities are normally not so well defended as the core cities, so the TOW is strong enough for the job.

Paras are useless.

patcon · January 31, 2004, 08:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
I have found helicopter insertation of TOW infantry useful to capture islands and remote cities which are hard to reach due to rough terrain. These cities are normally not so well defended as the core cities, so the TOW is strong enough for the job.

Paras are useless.

Great ideas, that I'd overlooked. I've not used helos and paras since Civ2, but now can see their utility as part of a coordinated mass invasion. Take out radar towers, pillage/block reinforcement routes, etc. Now all I want is a combat-engineer unit that can be airlifted in to rebuild the roads I need to continue the invasion march. (It was so much fun riding the Scandi RR they had thoughfully built between their cities, so my troops could arrive rested and fresh at the next city to fall under the Celtic boot.)
Are Marines that combat-engineer unit? - I'll have to check. Maybe Marines are useful after all. (just kidding - I just don't do much amphibious invading - Semper Fi!)

MattPilot · January 31, 2004, 11:32

no combat engineer unit in the epic game - but i made one myself and it works out great

Though i have a real need for them, cause i made all modern motorized units 'wheeled' <- no mountains without road.

Anyway, back to the ZoC thingie.

A free shot is NOT always awarded. We all know Armies have ZoC's too (and any units within forts). Anyway, the enemy was moving 2 units past my army (within the ZoC), and one of them got shot and the other didn't. Other things have happened in that turn that i didn't like so i restarted from a save

. This time, none of the passing units got shot. I thought that was odd and decided to load it up again. This time 2 shots were fired, but only one got hit.

I've done more tests, and based on my woefully inadequate scientific tests

, i believe the free pot shot is somewhere around 33%, and then another 50% from that to see if you get hit or not.

This was with a roman legion army. Now i've gotten way better results with modern paratroopers, so defense strength (not attack, since paratroopers are weak) probably has something to do with it. Anybody want to volunteer on getting a formula?

Rasputin · January 31, 2004, 11:51

another use for paratroopers is to land on enemies resources to stop them having access to them thereby starving thme of certian units .....

Jaybe · January 31, 2004, 13:58

MattPilot, the only "official" explanation re ZOC was from Soren many months (years??) ago. The trespassing unit's defense is used against the ZOC-imposing unit's "attack strength divided by two!"

It would probably take an alexman to do a rigorous study independently.

Chemical Ollie · January 31, 2004, 21:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Rasputin
another use for paratroopers is to land on enemies resources to stop them having access to them thereby starving thme of certian units .....

The para is too weak to hold on to the tile. They get rolled over by tanks, and even cavallery, before they can act, unless you drop 10 or so on the same tile.

Capt Dizle · January 31, 2004, 22:05

If you are on the offensive you might use paratroops by dropping them behind wounded stacks which the AI might want to withdraw.

You might generate a leader and not be in a postion to get him to safety. Drop in some defense.

You have a weakened stack with some elites or artillery to protect. Drop in some defense.

I think if you build some you might find a use for them.

vmxa1 · February 1, 2004, 03:09

The range of the para is too limited as well. Can they come off of carriers?

CerberusIV · February 1, 2004, 05:39

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
The range of the para is too limited as well. Can they come off of carriers?

You would have to edit it. I can't remember if the modern para has a longer range than the earlier one but it should.

Carriers can only carry air units.

vmxa1 · February 1, 2004, 14:52

I was prety sure they could not be loaded on carriers, thanks.

needle · February 1, 2004, 19:08

You could put paras into a helicopter and then the heli onto a carrier. But they would still be crap.

vmxa1 · February 1, 2004, 20:26

I have never build a helo in III, I liked them in II. I don't recall ever seeing one in my games.

Theseus posted a screenie where the AI landed a chopter near one of his cities. I forgot what they off loaded, but it was a strange sight.