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Old January 20, 2004, 22:45   #1
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"When I'm a parent, I'm not going to punish my child! I will gently..."
"... explain to them what they're doing wrong and reason with them....Spanking does nothing but teach the kid that violence is the answer... blah, blah, blah."

Yeah, I used to be one of those too. "Oh, I'll NEVER spank my kids, that would be WRONG!!! I remember when my dad spanked me - I vowed that I would never do that to my kid, that I will treat them with love, respect, yadda yadda yadda."



So, whatcha gonna do in the following case:

Sophie walks in the room, reeking to high heaven because she had a diaper:

"Sophie, did you have a movement?"
"No."
"Sophie, tell me the truth: did you have a diaper?"
"No."
"Sophie, you're lying to us."
"No."
peering inside "Sophie, I can see it. Did you have a diaper?"
"No."

Oh, we didn't spank her of course - she's still too young for more than a swat on the bottom (something you don't want to do with a full diaper anyway), but the fact is that I have seen the future 'cause I remember the past: Even with all evidence to the contrary, even knowing that we know, children will still lie to us to avoid whatever it is they want to avoid (in this situation a diaper change). I did it, my daughter does it, I'm sure y'all did it too.

So, how does one reason with a creature that will knowingly deny mountains of evidence? Answer: you can't.

But any suggestions would be appreciated.

So, all you parents out there: what was the biggest shift from the imaginary to the real that you experienced? Were you rabidly anti-TV... until you needed some peace and quiet to get some work done so you decided to turn on the cartoons? Were you virulently anti-spanking until you just had to get the message across? Were you an anti-Santa Nazi who now gets sad because your kids no longer believes?

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Old January 20, 2004, 22:48   #2
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she's still too young for more than a swat on the bottom (something you don't want to do with a full diaper anyway)
I was wondering how that was going to work.
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Old January 20, 2004, 22:57   #3
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Re: "When I'm a parent, I'm not going to punish my child! I will gently..."
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Sophie walks in the room, reeking to high heaven because she had a diaper:

"Sophie, did you have a movement?"
"No."
"Sophie, tell me the truth: did you have a diaper?"
"No."
"Sophie, you're lying to us."
"No."
peering inside "Sophie, I can see it. Did you have a diaper?"
"No."

[/size]
Just a thought - did you teach her other words than "No"?

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Old January 20, 2004, 23:01   #4
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I'm not a parent, but I know from experience and my own upbringing that instilling the fear of God into your kids is a great motivator for them to act like respectable human beings. You don't need to spank, but using your angry "God talking to Moses" voice works wonders. The positive motivator (do this and you'll get candy) is about the worst way to go.

Ned Flanders never got spanked and look what happened to him??? (Yeah, I know, he's fictional, but so's the boogie man).
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:04   #5
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Re: Re: "When I'm a parent, I'm not going to punish my child! I will gently..."
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Originally posted by BeBro


Just a thought - did you teach her other words than "No"?

Heh-heh. Just you wait.
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:06   #6
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I just thought maybe she was willing to tell the truth, but hadnīt the means to do so :
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:06   #7
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Originally posted by Harry Tuttle You don't need to spank, but using your angry "God talking to Moses" voice works wonders.
In time, that loses its effectiveness as your child gets used to it. Even at the age of 2.

"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS" works great... until the opponent realizes that you will never use them.
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:08   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnT


In time, that loses its effectiveness as your child gets used to it. Even at the age of 2.

"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS" works great... until the opponent realizes that you will never use them.
Use them on an insignificant third party. Do you have any pets?
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:09   #9
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Yeah, but the dogs don't lie.
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:10   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Verto


Use them on an insignificant third party. Do you have any pets?
Still useless once the balance of terror is established.
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:10   #11
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:12   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnT


In time, that loses its effectiveness as your child gets used to it. Even at the age of 2.

"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS" works great... until the opponent realizes that you will never use them.
True, true. There's a myriad of things you could try really. Maybe some shaming, some praise. You're right about the one sided approach. Use "combined arms".
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:15   #13
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Re: "When I'm a parent, I'm not going to punish my child! I will gently..."
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
So, all you parents out there: what was the biggest shift from the imaginary to the real that you experienced? Were you rabidly anti-TV... until you needed some peace and quiet to get some work done


My wife and I actually got some hands on practice on our niece during the first Persian Gulf Conflict back in '91. It essentially evolved into a "Good Cop/ Bad Cop" approach in that I watched my wife struggle mightily to verbally convince our niece to do something/ stop acting out, and when my wife finally gave up, I stepped in and made it very clear what I expected of her. Our niece wised up real quick as to who she could twist around her little finger, but to this day 13 years later, she gravitates towards the person who was more strict with her.....
Oh yeah, and if you do decide to "punish" your kid at that phase of development you are describing, change the diaper before doing so: considering how absorbant diapers are, spanking a kid with a full diaper proves to the child just how impotent spanking really is.....


D
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Old January 20, 2004, 23:18   #14
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I just whack my kids - saves a lot of time.
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Old January 21, 2004, 08:09   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Yeah, but the dogs don't lie.
Only by oversight...
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Old January 21, 2004, 08:18   #16
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Spanking kids is sometimes necessary to show them that there is a limit that MUST not be crossed... Imagine your kid is crossing the street without looking at the road to spot a vehicle though you have repeated time and time again that he should not cross without you or without having a look. You can tell him many times he won't pay any attention to it until a given age because kids do not have any sense of danger until they are old enough to, but what they remember is that they will be spanked if they do it.

Fortunately, the big voice followed by a threat is generally enough to stop the criminal. But for the threat to be understood you need to have spanked the child at least once...
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Old January 21, 2004, 08:24   #17
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I'm speculating JohnT, but maybe, just maybe the reason she didn't want to admit to it was because she was afraid of an angry reaction.

Now, if your conscience is clear on that, fair enough. But too often I see parents in full screeching rage at their kids.

Scares the hell out of me, let alone the kids!
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Old January 21, 2004, 08:28   #18
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I don't get mad at my kids very often.
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Old January 21, 2004, 08:31   #19
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If I ever have to resort to that I will consider myself failed as a parent. Use the term, "movement" like that, I mean
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Old January 21, 2004, 08:37   #20
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I'm just glad Professor Roy Meadows never caught up with me.
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Old January 21, 2004, 09:10   #21
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Small children are far more intelligent than adults tend to believe. We tend to base our idea of their intelligence on their vocal capabilities and their knowledge and experience, both of which they are lacking. As a result, we continually underestimate the sophisitication of their understanding, motivation and actions.

Sophie has yet to learn sarcasm. So she has no response better than no. Otherwise, she would probably say,

"No, doofus, somebody else had a crap, I'm just holding it for them."

Or, if she was not inclined to sarcasm, she might try,

"Of course I did, you dolt, we can both smell it, can't we. Why do you insist on trying to humiliate me with a series of rhetorical questions to point out what I already know. I'm just a two-year old. Crapping our pants is one the things we sometimes do. If you don't like it, you should have kept it in your pants."

Spanking your kid is giving in to your fear and frustration. It has only negative impact on the kid, and admits automatically that you are a failure. If you want your kid to be thoughtful, respectful and responsible, you cannot teach them this by being angry, violent, and reactive.
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Old January 21, 2004, 09:16   #22
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I talk to my kids, that always works. They would do anything, even behave, to avoid having me talk to them. You simply have to know how to be long winded, heavily moralistic, and boring. Oh, and you need to know how to apply a thick, smothering layer of guiilt. Try to think like a Yenta.
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Old January 21, 2004, 09:20   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Spanking your kid is giving in to your fear and frustration. It has only negative impact on the kid, and admits automatically that you are a failure. If you want your kid to be thoughtful, respectful and responsible, you cannot teach them this by being angry, violent, and reactive.
How many children do you have?
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Old January 21, 2004, 09:24   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Small children are far more intelligent than adults tend to believe.

*snip*

Spanking your kid is giving in to your fear and frustration. It has only negative impact on the kid, and admits automatically that you are a failure. If you want your kid to be thoughtful, respectful and responsible, you cannot teach them this by being angry, violent, and reactive.
Finally, someone who agrees with what I've been telling my mom my entire life. I could carry on full conversations with adults at age 4, yet I still got treated like I just learned to speak the day before. It's annoyed the hell out of me.

And for seriously, spanking is not the way to go. Nor is hitting them at all, because after awhile, they're going to hit back. I have, on various occasions and after being slapped for something, come about thisclose to slapping my mom back. I can't bring myself to do it. But anyway.

If you want a kid to do something, reward them for positive behaviour. "If you do such and such, I'll give you a cookie/take you to the park/buy you a puppy." Worked wonders for me.
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Old January 21, 2004, 09:37   #25
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stuie: two, aged 17 and 14. I've been through it all...

potassium: better still, explaing the benefits of what you should be doing, and let you decide that doing it will lead to a real reward, not an artificial one.

(rewards are the use of power to manipulate)
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Old January 21, 2004, 09:45   #26
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Once they get a bit older denial works quite well - "Go to your room and stay there. No, you are not to switch the Playstation on." Half an hour of that is usually enough to make the point.

(No, I don't have children but I have seen this work enough times to know it can be effective)
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Old January 21, 2004, 09:54   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Viking
stuie: two, aged 17 and 14. I've been through it all...
Cool. Just checking - usually the most vocal spanking critics have ZERO.

I disagree with your "admits automatically that you are a failure" statement. Like any diplomatic situation, the possible use of force should be kept available as a deterrent to future poor behavior. However, I only use spanking in extreme situations (such as where the child may injury himself) when all else has failed. Children need to learn that there are boundaries that must not be crossed, and crossing them must have consequences.
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Old January 21, 2004, 09:54   #28
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^^^^ That's why you teach them why they shouldn't be doing what they're doing. They aren't going to learn by you smacking their bottom and telling them they shouldn't do it. Anytime you tell a kid not to do something, they're just going to want to do it more.

Quote:
Originally posted by CerberusIV
Once they get a bit older denial works quite well - "Go to your room and stay there. No, you are not to switch the Playstation on." Half an hour of that is usually enough to make the point.

(No, I don't have children but I have seen this work enough times to know it can be effective)
No, it doesn't. Telling them to sit there and thnk about what they've done -- WTF?! "Okay. I talked back to you and now I'm sitting here being bored. I could be outside playing. That would be a lot more fun than this. I wonder what my friends are doing..." and the mind wandering continues from there.

Taking things away works about as well as ^^^ that ^^^.
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Old January 21, 2004, 10:00   #29
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Old January 21, 2004, 10:34   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Small children are far more intelligent than adults tend to believe. We tend to base our idea of their intelligence on their vocal capabilities and their knowledge and experience, both of which they are lacking. As a result, we continually underestimate the sophisitication of their understanding, motivation and actions.

Sophie has yet to learn sarcasm. So she has no response better than no. Otherwise, she would probably say,

"No, doofus, somebody else had a crap, I'm just holding it for them."

Or, if she was not inclined to sarcasm, she might try,

"Of course I did, you dolt, we can both smell it, can't we. Why do you insist on trying to humiliate me with a series of rhetorical questions to point out what I already know. I'm just a two-year old. Crapping our pants is one the things we sometimes do. If you don't like it, you should have kept it in your pants."

Spanking your kid is giving in to your fear and frustration. It has only negative impact on the kid, and admits automatically that you are a failure. If you want your kid to be thoughtful, respectful and responsible, you cannot teach them this by being angry, violent, and reactive.
I agree, in general, but once in a while a (single) swat on the bum lets em know that its more serious than the normal stuff.
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