"When I'm a parent, I'm not going to punish my child! I will gently..."

[yavoon]

Originally posted by DaShi


The parents don't have to be neglectful. You can still ask, "Did you **** yourself?" and try to prod the child in the right direction, but make it clear that you need the child to tell you the truth in order to help it. The main lesson is that actions or inactions have consequences.

nothing is about truth. the parents want to hear something. eventually the child will figure out what the parents want to hear. prodding the child only antagonizes the child. not that antagonizing the child is awful, but it certainly was not the goal of ur otherwise passive response.

(this doesn't apply before a certain age and mental faculty is reached)

[DaShi]

Originally posted by yavoon


nothing is about truth. the parents want to hear something. eventually the child will figure out what the parents want to hear. prodding the child only antagonizes the child. not that antagonizing the child is awful, but it certainly was not the goal of ur otherwise passive response.

(this doesn't apply before a certain age and mental faculty is reached)

Antagonizing children is always my goal. I'm a teacher, dammit!

[Snowflake]

I heard a story about somebody trying to train his cat. She always pees in the middle of the carpet of the living room. When he caught her doing that, he would scold her, swap her and then angrily throw her to the backyard throught the back window. So after multiple times of such discipline, she learnt that she would pee in the middle of the carpet and then jump out from that window as fast as she can.

I read that it is not every effective in teaching the children the right thing to do by threaten (if you do this then I will do that) or bribery (if you do this then I will give you that). Punishment sometimes serve as a negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is supposed to be the best way. That is, you wait till she does something good voluntarily, then you give her lots of praises, attentions and rewards.

However as a mom of two little kids I know that things are much easier said than done. I try to stick to that rule but there are many times that discipline is needed. Sometimes the kid does something bad, you try to ignore him but he'd repeat it again just to get your attention. Sometimes you look straightly at him and tell him "No!" and he would wiggle and laugh. Sometimes you try to talk to him as if he would understand and he would seriously listen and nod. Then when you let him go while feeling relieved that you have such a smart kid that you could put some reason into him, he'd be doing it again in 3 minutes.

What helped me is just being patient and consistent. A lot of times you need to say it many times before a kid realize the seriousness of it and remember the rules. I have found that many times I've been worried about a certain misbehavior not being corrected no matter what method I try. But after a while before I realize it would stop on its own. I'm never really sure if it is because my words have finally stucked in or if it is just that the kid simply grew up. Michael used to bite his big brother quite a lot. There had been many times I rescued Tiger from his merciless teeth and no matter how many "No"s he got he seemed uneffected. I've been so worried for he would be kicked out of day care if he bites other children when we send him to day care when he turns two. Well he is still not two yet but he never bites any more. I think his teeth used to be his only weapon in fighting with his old brother, and he grows up a little and can be a better fighter without relying on his teeth so much now.

As for the situation you described, I would do something different from what DaShi was suggesting. She is only two. Time out and reasonning would work better when she is a little older. What I would do is whenever I'm aware that she needs a diaper change, I would say "Oh you pooped. Let's go change your diaper." And I'll go change her without asking her and giving her the chance to say "no". She'll realize that it is not something she could bargain. That it is a fact and she'll have to do it no matter if she likes it or not. And when I do it and she protests because she doesn't like that I would take the chance to say "I know you don't like this. When you are ready to use the potty you would be able to wear underwares and not having to do this any more." But I won't force her to use the potty. Just say this from time to time so that she gets familiarized with the idea and perhaps one day she would suddenly decides that she wants to give that a try. And she might be frightened too when she startes to do that. And perhaps she would just stand up right after she sits down. I would try give her some distraction and incentives, for example I'll say how about I'll read you a book here. She might want to stay a little. But I'd let her go if she chooses not to do it.

Anyway all I'm saying is that don't push anything, be patient and consistent. Remember they are still little children. What they are doing is natural. I wouldn't classify her action as deliberately lying and punish her for that. She wouldn't really know what lying is until she is a little older yet.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Anyone who thinks verbal chastisement isn't sufficient has never faced me in righteous wrath. I can make dogs cower and urinate in terror, so kids are a doddle.

It isn't raising your voice. It's putting on a scary face, adopting an aggressive bodily posture and roaring "NO!!!!!!" like an enraged silverback gorilla. Trust me, it works. I scare the crap out of them.

[DaShi]

I like HongHu's approach.

[Whaleboy]

Oh don't get me started on this again. I'll get gang raped, but you know I'm right

[Japher]

Trust me, it works. I scare the crap out of them.

And then they lie about it

[yavoon]

Originally posted by HongHu
I heard a story about somebody trying to train his cat. She always pees in the middle of the carpet of the living room. When he caught her doing that, he would scold her, swap her and then angrily throw her to the backyard throught the back window. So after multiple times of such discipline, she learnt that she would pee in the middle of the carpet and then jump out from that window as fast as she can.

I read that it is not every effective in teaching the children the right thing to do by threaten (if you do this then I will do that) or bribery (if you do this then I will give you that). Punishment sometimes serve as a negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is supposed to be the best way. That is, you wait till she does something good voluntarily, then you give her lots of praises, attentions and rewards.

However as a mom of two little kids I know that things are much easier said than done. I try to stick to that rule but there are many times that discipline is needed. Sometimes the kid does something bad, you try to ignore him but he'd repeat it again just to get your attention. Sometimes you look straightly at him and tell him "No!" and he would wiggle and laugh. Sometimes you try to talk to him as if he would understand and he would seriously listen and nod. Then when you let him go while feeling relieved that you have such a smart kid that you could put some reason into him, he'd be doing it again in 3 minutes.

What helped me is just being patient and consistent. A lot of times you need to say it many times before a kid realize the seriousness of it and remember the rules. I have found that many times I've been worried about a certain misbehavior not being corrected no matter what method I try. But after a while before I realize it would stop on its own. I'm never really sure if it is because my words have finally stucked in or if it is just that the kid simply grew up. Michael used to bite his big brother quite a lot. There had been many times I rescued Tiger from his merciless teeth and no matter how many "No"s he got he seemed uneffected. I've been so worried for he would be kicked out of day care if he bites other children when we send him to day care when he turns two. Well he is still not two yet but he never bites any more. I think his teeth used to be his only weapon in fighting with his old brother, and he grows up a little and can be a better fighter without relying on his teeth so much now.

As for the situation you described, I would do something different from what DaShi was suggesting. She is only two. Time out and reasonning would work better when she is a little older. What I would do is whenever I'm aware that she needs a diaper change, I would say "Oh you pooped. Let's go change your diaper." And I'll go change her without asking her and giving her the chance to say "no". She'll realize that it is not something she could bargain. That it is a fact and she'll have to do it no matter if she likes it or not. And when I do it and she protests because she doesn't like that I would take the chance to say "I know you don't like this. When you are ready to use the potty you would be able to wear underwares and not having to do this any more." But I won't force her to use the potty. Just say this from time to time so that she gets familiarized with the idea and perhaps one day she would suddenly decides that she wants to give that a try. And she might be frightened too when she startes to do that. And perhaps she would just stand up right after she sits down. I would try give her some distraction and incentives, for example I'll say how about I'll read you a book here. She might want to stay a little. But I'd let her go if she chooses not to do it.

Anyway all I'm saying is that don't push anything, be patient and consistent. Remember they are still little children. What they are doing is natural. I wouldn't classify her action as deliberately lying and punish her for that. She wouldn't really know what lying is until she is a little older yet.

in every single positive reinforcement experience I have had it has had minimal effect.

maybe this is me. but I think it its touted way more than its actual usefulness by ppl who think its immoral to punish children.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by JohnT
Jimmy, you might be confusing cause and effect. Perhaps your sister was spanked because she was wild, and perhaps you weren't because you weren't.

A persuasive argument that spanking was for the parents' satisfaction, because it did not help the wild child at all!

[Japher]

kids these days are jackasses. I blame stupid, yuppie parents who won't take their hand to their children. Rather shut 'em up with drugs.

Spare the rod and spoil the child... who eventually joins a gang is disrespects you.

[The Mad Viking]

in every single positive reinforcement experience I have had it has had minimal effect.

If you read Honghu's post carefully, you will note the difference between positive reinforcement and reward.

A reward, offered in advance for compliance with a desired behaviour, is in fact IDENTICAL to a punishment. In both scenarios, you show a desirable outcome for compliance, and an undesirable outcome for non-compliance, and no other scenario. Pure manipulation, pure power, no learning other than about power, manipulation and compliance.

What Honghu is talking about is opportunistic praise when a voluntary behaviour is observed by a parent who is appreciative of that behaviour. I see little reason why you would even remember getting positive reinforcemnt, let alone be able to assess its effect!

The point is, what is the goal you are trying to achieve.

If all you want is to raise an individual who complies with power and authority, and who looks to others for guidance and approval, spank, punish and reward to your heart's content.

If, OTOH, you want to raise an individual to think for themselves, to make decisions based on assessing information and evaluating outcomes, to be self-reliant, and to develop an intrinsic sense of self-worth, maybe you ought to try communicating a little more and controlling a whole lot less.

Q "Can't you control your child?"

A "Why would I want to CONTROL my own child?"

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by HongHu, emphasis added by me.
Anyway all I'm saying is that don't push anything, be patient and consistent. Remember they are still little children. What they are doing is natural. I wouldn't classify her action as deliberately lying and punish her for that. She wouldn't really know what lying is until she is a little older yet.

/me applauds and agrees.

[FrostyBoy]

I am against it, I 100% believe there is a better way - a more peaceful way.

It's obvious she's either lying because she doesn't want a diaper change, or maybe she is scared that she has done something that will dissappoint you.

If you didn't treat diaper changing as a bad thing, she probably would not have lied.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


If you read Honghu's post carefully, you will note the difference between positive reinforcement and reward.

A reward, offered in advance for compliance with a desired behaviour, is in fact IDENTICAL to a punishment. In both scenarios, you show a desirable outcome for compliance, and an undesirable outcome for non-compliance, and no other scenario. Pure manipulation, pure power, no learning other than about power, manipulation and compliance.

What Honghu is talking about is opportunistic praise when a voluntary behaviour is observed by a parent who is appreciative of that behaviour. I see little reason why you would even remember getting positive reinforcemnt, let alone be able to assess its effect!

The point is, what is the goal you are trying to achieve.

If all you want is to raise an individual who complies with power and authority, and who looks to others for guidance and approval, spank, punish and reward to your heart's content.

If, OTOH, you want to raise an individual to think for themselves, to make decisions based on assessing information and evaluating outcomes, to be self-reliant, and to develop an intrinsic sense of self-worth, maybe you ought to try communicating a little more and controlling a whole lot less.

Q "Can't you control your child?"

A "Why would I want to CONTROL my own child?"

very well I will rephrase. i see very lil effect of EITHER positive reinforcement OR reward.

and ur supposition of a direct cause and affect of how to raise a child and the product you will get out the back end is all but laughable. If only a parent had near that kind of ability.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Sn00py
I am against it, I 100% believe there is a better way - a more peaceful way.

It's obvious she's either lying because she doesn't want a diaper change, or maybe she is scared that she has done something that will dissappoint you.

If you didn't treat diaper changing as a bad thing, she probably would not have lied.

That's really all I have to say about the above.

[Japher]

because kids no how to reason... they do things just to do it. They aren't aware that it's right or wrong, and they can't reason it out...

You need not control your kid, but you need to educate them in the ways of proper behavior if they are going to be able to function in society.

[Potassium]

Originally posted by JohnT
Positive reinforcement is fine, but how do you positively reinforce the notion that crayons and walls don't mix?

You show her how much fun colouring in colouring books can be. You take her to the store, buy her a new set of crayons, let her pick out a book, colour in it with her. I had plenty of colouring books to keep my occupied when I was little, but not that I ever coloured on the walls to begin with.

Originally posted by JohnT
Again, note that we're talking about a 27-month old child here. "Teaching them why they shouldn't be doing what they're doing" will probably work in a couple of years, but for now it usually draws blank stares and a lot of nodding.

And in the other paragraph, sitting thinking about how the other kids were having fun and you weren't is precisely what your parents wanted you to do. Oh, they didn't phrase it that way... but you gotta admit that it was pretty effective, or else you wouldn't still remember it.

I still remember it because I'm ADD and I hate sitting still for long periods of time. I didn't think it was good punishment then, and I don' think it's good punishment now. I just resented getting punished and learned how to be a lot sneakier in whatever it was I was doing.

And no, teaching them right and wrong isn't necessarily going to work, but what do you expect a swat on the bottom to do?

"May we see what's in your diaper?"
"No"
*Swat*
*cry*

Oh yeah, that worked wonders.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Potassium
I just resented getting punished and learned how to be a lot sneakier in whatever it was I was doing.

So you learned a valuable lesson. What's the problem?

[Potassium]

Originally posted by Stuie
So you learned a valuable lesson. What's the problem?

You seem to have missed the part where I said I learned to be sneakier and avoid getting punished. I never learned why I was getting punished, just that whatever I was doing would get me yelled at and put in a corner.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

K,

You learned a valuable life lesson. How to get away with stuff.

[Potassium]

^^^ See, that I agree with.

[JohnT]

No children of your own, eh Potassium?

You show her how much fun colouring in colouring books can be. You take her to the store, buy her a new set of crayons, let her pick out a book, colour in it with her.

The presence of coloring books does not preclude a child from drawing on a wall.

I still remember it because I'm ADD and I hate sitting still for long periods of time. I didn't think it was good punishment then, and I don' think it's good punishment now. I just resented getting punished and learned how to be a lot sneakier in whatever it was I was doing.

Again, the punishment was effective 'cause you actually remember it to this day. Who cares if you resented it - that's the bloody point!

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by JohnT

The presence of coloring books does not preclude a child from drawing on a wall.

You tell her that walls are not for drawing. Then you give her a wet cloth and let her wipe it off. She won't do it well but that is just to teach her that she needs to take responsibility. Then you give her a piece of paper and tell her that she could draw good stuff there and you will stick that picture to your refrigeritor.

And then, you repaint your wall.

And then, you wait till the next time she draws on the wall again.

And then, you wait till they grow up and stop doing that.

Just make sure you use those paint that will cause you the least stress when your wall is drawed upon. It is natural that children want to draw everywhere. Don't get too angry on that. Find a way to make it not so hard on you.

Michael's drawed on walls and carpets. But he hasn't done this a lot. I think the fact that we didn't make it a big deal perhaps helped. Also he has a white board where he can draw and lots of pieces of paper to dribble on.

[chequita guevara]

I was a rotten **** child. I have no idea how to handle problem children. At least that's my opinion of myself. The reality is when I was taking care of my neighbor's kids while she was at work, I was actually quite good. Stern, but not mean. Never yelled, and only resorted to force, once, by picking up a kid who had refused to move in protest.

[Whaleboy]

If you want me to get psychological on your arses (and you dont but bite me), spanking is an example of classical conditioning. It is, inherently, hit and miss, and rather ineffective. Consider the "benefits" of a violent household. It is far more indicate of parents that are given to stress and frustration. That's ok, we're only human, and sometimes, that means we cannot be good parents. Oh hang on... what about the parents that don't spank and raise successful children? Hmmm excuses are up people .

[chequita guevara]

Spanking made me a communist.

[Japher]

Spanking made me a republican.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I was a rotten **** child. I have no idea how to handle problem children. At least that's my opinion of myself. The reality is when I was taking care of my neighbor's kids while she was at work, I was actually quite good. Stern, but not mean. Never yelled, and only resorted to force, once, by picking up a kid who had refused to move in protest.

This is a very good example why parents sometimes cannot do as good as school teachers. Because parents are emotionally related to their children, so they tend to spoil them more, or are more upset by their misbehaviors. One can be real objective and rational when it is not your own child. One can talk theories all day. But the real test is to have your own children.

[Potassium]

Originally posted by JohnT
No children of your own, eh Potassium?

No, I'm not an irresponsible teenager, kthx. I do have 8 neices and nephews, whom I've been with since they were born. I've practically lived at my sisters houses since I was little, so I'd like to think I at least know something by observation/babysitting, since I've been doing it since I was 6.

The presence of coloring books does not preclude a child from drawing on a wall.

That's why you tell her why she shouldn't draw on the walls and you show her how much more fun it is to draw on paper. See also that one guy's post above.

Again, the punishment was effective 'cause you actually remember it to this day. Who cares if you resented it - that's the bloody point!

No, the punishment was not freaking effective, because I did not stop whatever the hell it was I was supposed to not be doing, be it talking out of turn, or sneaking snacks, or any of the stupid things I got yelled at for. The only thing I did learn was that I shouldn't do such things around my mom. Punishing a kid is supposed to teach them why they're not supposed to do something, not throwing them in a corner, yelling at them, and telling them to think about what they did. How the hell do you expect them to learn anything if you just throw them in a corner and make them divine for themselves why they shouldn't be doing it?

[Adalbertus]

Just a few thoughts of a non-parent (who thinks he has not forgotten his own childhood):

I don't think that spanking is evil in itself, but it is easy to turn it into evil. --
A colleague told me his daughter spanked him (as much as she could) when he took her after she started crying. She was breast-fed an hour ago, and (as he told) it is not a good idea to breast-feed a baby in intervals less than two hours, so the decision was that the father should try to calm her. As a child of six weeks, the daughter started to suck at the fathers breast with the result you might suspect. That was the reason for her to spank (I don't believe she had any rational thinking behind her action).

OK, kids learn to distinguish between yes and no, and later good and evil, at an age of two or three. Before that time I don't see any reason to spank a child. After that the most important thing for the child is to know why it has been spanked. If s/he knows, why, spanking may create fears (not necessarily in the way the parents want it). If the child doesn't know why, it will feel rejected on a general basis which may lead to depressions and other sorts of things a parent probably doesn't wish to see. So my basic attitude is: If you spank, explain, why.

The other thing is with fears. When you spank due to lies, a child probably develops a fear to lie (which isn't a bad thing, IMO. Unfortunately our society is based on lies and liars). It is essential, however, that a child can avoid spanking if it doesn't lie. I. e. don't spank it if it broke a glass and did admit it. And usually it is easier for a child to see the damage which is done by breaking a glass than by lying. But also it is important that a child gets a chance to see what damage is done by lying.

I don't see any benefit in spanking for school things, because this only creates fear of school which is a bad thing.
Lastly, I think the worst punishment for a child is to refuse to speak to him/her. The only way parents can totally wreck a life of 70-80 years in a few weeks.

So, I probably would spank if and only if it serves as a "shortcut" to reflect the child's actions with respect to their relations to other people. Kids do this among themselves anyway.