why feudalism is better than republic - Page 2

vmxa1 · January 22, 2004, 19:06

Ok, I was figuring it was at least a large map with not a lot of civs.
In std maps you do not tend to have 20-40 cities in ancient age.
At Emp/Demi, especially Demi I do not try to get that large quickly.

Also at lower settings the tech rate is slower, so you have more time to get a big empire before the next age.
I was making my assesments based on Emp std map.
The civs traits will have an impact as well as AG will be able to grow quicker.

vmxa1 · January 22, 2004, 19:09

Well mainly just the gold bug fix and then the FP issue. 1.12 got the gpt fixed and the others mucked around with corruption and the FP.

AAHZ · January 22, 2004, 19:10

yeah i like huge empires, and this strategy assumes you will have a large empire. on a std size map, hmm not sure if feudy would work as well compared to a 30-40 city powerhouse on a huge size map. i should have clarified that from the start.

vmxa1 · January 22, 2004, 19:18

I think that you will see that at Monarch or lower you should be able to get away with quite a few less defenders. I use roaming barbs, but the barbs seem to be very lame lately. I do see that 1.15 may have adjusted them, to soon to tell.

Anyway you get to the point that you can sort of read the AI and beat it to the punch. Thus you do not need true defenders.
I will be forced to use MP's until I get to republic, but they do not have to be spears. Once I get out of despotism, then I can have some empty cities with no defenders at all.

It is quite common for players to avoid making defender type units, namely spears as they are not very functional and they are a long ways from being upgraded to something good. Upgrades are expensive in C3C as well.

Are you making units from all cities or just a few pumps? Are you using barracks for these units?

vmxa1 · January 22, 2004, 19:26

A huge empire will cause you to have lots of border to defend, so I would really put a premium on fast movers.

I look forward to seeing what that looks like when you get to that point. I image it is very satisfying to have all those troops, but painful to manage all those cities and tiles.

SuperPower · January 22, 2004, 19:34

Having a vast empire with hundreds of enemies roaming around gives me huge amounts of stress...it ends up everytime that I lose. Kind of confusing

AAHZ · January 22, 2004, 19:35

i always build at least 1 defender per city, plus under feudy they count toward police. i build barracks in every city (unless i get sun tzu's) and dont pump out my real military until i have a barracks. also upgrade my spears to pikes. when i get muskets all my cities will have barracks either way. if i have any money left i upgrade my pikes to muskets, or ill just build muskets from scratch (which will be vets as compared to my pikes which were just regulars), and disband my regular pikes. i usually double up my defense on coastal and border cities, as well as borderguards and a coast guard.

on top of all that i have a back up contigent of at least 20 fast units like knights (or earlier horseman) as my main attack force located in a strategic location on the map. if i go to war, i will be ready in any circumstance.

you see why rebublic dosent work for me, and feudy is a gem, as all these units need supporting. i dont think ill ever leave my cities undefended, as from this point on im a monarch player (except when im training my friend) and i will slowly make my way up the ladder to emperor. this strategy works well under monarch. havent tried it under emperor yet.

vmxa1 · January 22, 2004, 21:02

Consider not building barracks in all of your cities, That is surely over kill. You have the cost of building and the support cost for it.
Build them in cities that are building troops and in border towns.

Post a few saves along the way to fuedal for perspective.

SporkPimp · January 22, 2004, 21:21

Personal mod... I use Feudalism only as an ICS government for really bad starts/maps (I play everything Random, including map size and barbs).

Corruption/Waste: Communal (everyone is an equal distance from their LORD, who is my VASSAL, who can't exactly gip me on tribute when I've got 3 divisions of knights in his city)
War Weariness: None (it's not my problem... let the vassals deal with it)

It plays oddly... the corruption is better than regular Feudalism on huge, sprawling archipelago ICS empires, but it usually ends up being around the same as Monarchy.

The War Weariness keeps it from being useless. If I'm gonna be charging out there with 100 legionaries, even Low WW will bring me to my knees in a few turns.

-SporkPimp

AAHZ · January 22, 2004, 21:23

boy i wasnt kidding when i say i am rusty. regent level seems to have spoiled me in to a comfortable, yet false, hope of expectation. my REX is not the problem, its my tech. i tried monarch for the first time in a long time and i was constantly behind in tech. map size seems to not be an issue as a larger map would just give the AI a chance to get huge like me, but be about an AGE ahead of me in tech. and it will be twice as hard to kill it.

my strategy worked on regent and im SURE it will work on monarch. its works in theory. i will take your advice and not build as many barracks and just start pumping troops from the getgo. i wont falter on my temples however as i refuse to be behind in culture.

i could just post my strategy on regent level but i want to prove to myself that i can do it. when i finally get a good game going i will post saves along the way.

boy i have a lot of work to do.

Nisku · January 22, 2004, 22:14

AAHZ you are not the only one that loves feudalism. I'm just finishing off (with a huge lead) an emporer level game using the Arabs. Feudalism gave me great unit support and it is completely possible to have 120 units or more in the medieval age. I had about 100-150 Ansar warriors before I built up my main continental strike. I've also won two Monarch games, one with the Arabs and one with the Celts, both of those games I used feudalism.

AAHZ I also like to build barracks in almost all of my cities. Like vmxa1 says only build them in border towns or towns that are making military units, that's usually about 80-90% of my towns

. That one hitpoint from the barracks makes a really big diffrence. When I do ICS I rarely build temples because the cities are so close together that I don't need cultural expansion. Only in newly conquered enemy cities do I really use them or later in the game I build them in all my cities and try to catch up.

I started my current game on a medium sized island with one opponent. I destroyed my opponent quickly and did ICS through the whole island. Feudalism helped for tech as I didn't have to research/trade/extort for either of the optional techs republic or monarchy. When I researched chivalry I built up the above mentioned Ansar warriors and made a strike on the one large continent that went very well. I stayed in feudalism right up until I was able to build hospitals then switched to democracy.

The only thing that annoyed me about feudalism was the war weariness but it wasn't really all that big of a problem. I did experiement and check my empire under the diffrent governments - monarchy I had much lower support about 3/4 I think and republic I would have been bankrupt in a couple of turns.

If I can figure it out and if I have one of my early game saves I'll post a save here if you like.

Edit: I forgot to mention this strategy should work on any size map I was able to suceed on an island. I think a lot does depend on your UU it needs to be a early medieval UU or late ancient age.

Zero · January 22, 2004, 23:16

120 friggin units... sheesh.

Reminds me of the way I used to play. I often forfeited scientific lead (Play as the least scientific civ) and focus all my economy on war, relying on both tributes and conquest to advance myself.

unfortunately you dont steal tech in civ3 anymore when you conquer cities.... I used love playing that way...

vmxa1 · January 22, 2004, 23:34

AAHZ IMO the game is harder than it was before C3C for a number of reason. So if you were doing Monarch in PTW and Regent in C3C, going to monarch will be stiffer. You will have a much harder time in research for the first part of the age.

Do it at regent if you want. I just am intersted in seeing how people are going about it.

My point was never that fuedalism is bad, just that you should not be needing it any time in before the tail end of the middle ages. Then you should already be in Monarchy or Repbulic. If you are it will be even more painful to switch unless you are religious.

IOW I would agree if you have 150-200 units you could use fuedalism. So I want to see how the thing progresses.

Nisku · January 22, 2004, 23:48

The idea is to switch immediatly into feudalism when you get to the middle ages, skip republic and monarchy. If you have small cities despotism provides more unit support then monarchy/republic anyway so no point in switching into republic or monarchy then switching to feudalism, just skip them all together.

I don't have a early game save, I usually don't save games

.

Here is my current save. I started on the island to the southeast of the main land mass with Carthage. That island used to be packed full of cities that have since been disbanded. The south of the main land mass used to be the chinese, the civ I destroyed with all those Ansar warriors to gain a foothold. Now I'm trying to decide if I should nuke the world or go for a space race victory.

AAHZ · January 23, 2004, 00:21

VMXA-

Yes thats exactly what happened. i played monarch at PTW and Regent at C3C. i fell into a comfortable routine and it will take a great effort to break out of it. plus i feel regent level is a good balance because the computer dosent get an unfair advantage. also i just have more fun with it. ok then i will play a regent game and show you this strategy.

BTW could you explain in more detail the difference between monarch and regent level. i didnt really understand your chart earlier. i just want to know how the AI gets such a huge tech lead. its ridiculous. i dont know how you guys play at the harder levels and consider monarch EASY.

Nisku-

i agree with everything you said. i dont even build aqueducts or graneries until i hit democracy to keep my cities small to support all the units i can. then when i get commy, i can smite anybody i choose.

vmxa1 · January 23, 2004, 02:24

Ok great, I will peek at the 1950, but that is way after the fact.

So hit me with a few save, so I can try and see what you were up and if you feel like any run down on a summay.

vmxa1 · January 23, 2004, 02:33

Regent get 0 units to start, Monarch gets 1 offensive units.
This will be the best type the civ knows. In all but a maybe Germans that mean warriors. Monarch gets 2 defensive units to start. This means is the best one they can build.

Monarch gets 4 extra free unit support beyond the government level.
1 bonus for each city.
Transition of government is 4.
Cost factor is 10 for Regent and 9 for Monarch.
AI to AI trade is 130 for Regent 140 for Monarch.
Barbs is 200 for Regent and 100 for Monarch.
OCN is 90% for Regent and 85 for MOnarch.

vmxa1 · January 23, 2004, 02:37

Bonus for Each City (AI Unit Support Bonuses)
Determines how many extra units the AI can support per city, in addition to any existing governmental bonuses, on the selected difficulty level. Note that this number is cumulative with all other support bonuses

Max Government Transition Time (AI Bonuses)
Determines the maximum number of turns the AI must remain in the transition government type (default is Anarchy) before transitioning to the newly selected government type. Setting this number lower will reduce the negative effects of switching governments. The default value of zero means there is no maximum to how long this can take.

Cost Factor (AI Bonuses)
Determines the cost factor that is applied to AI growth, shields, and research. The player's cost factor is always 10. Choosing a value higher than 10 means the AI will be at a disadvantage, while choosing a value lower than 10 means the AI will be at an advantage.

AI to AI trade rate (AI Bonuses)
Determines the percentage multiplier used in AI – AI trade sessions on the selected difficulty level. This value is a percentage (acceptable values range from 100% to 1000%) which is multiplied by the total value (in gold) of the initiating civ’s offerings, which is used by the "other" AI civ to determine whether a deal is acceptable or not. For example, with a rate of 120, an AI civ offering 100 gold to another AI civ for something would actually be worth 120 gold to the other AI civ.

This rate directly affects the frequency and aggressiveness with which AI civs trade amongst themselves.

Attack Bonus Against Barbarians
Determines the attack bonus enjoyed by any player (human or AI) against barbarians. A value of zero means the barbarians have no combat disadvantage, thus a barbarian warrior would be as powerful as the warrior of any player in the game.

Percentage of Optimal Cities
Determines what percentage of the optimal number of cities setting (found on the world sizes page) is actually optimal on the selected difficulty level. If this value is 100%, the optimal number of cities will be equal to the default setting for the given world size. At 50%, the optimal number of cities is halved. At 200%, the optimal number of cities is doubled. This value will not match the value on the World Sizes page exactly because the corruption setting of the player's government type is also a modifier.

AAHZ · January 23, 2004, 08:59

wow dosent seem like theres that much of a difference based on those numbers but it sure plays like it. regent level seems to me be the "normal" level. Monarch seems to be the "hard" level with it becoming even more challenging as you go up the ladder. i guess even with 1 point and 5% differences, thats all the leg up the computer needs to get a huge lead on the player. maybie the only way to catch up is archer/horseman rush, and beat the AI into giving up all its tech. i HOPE thats not the only way to win.

will post my first save with summary a little later today.

CerberusIV · January 23, 2004, 09:10

AAHZ - Regent is level but isn't because the AI is inefficient. Try playing with the governors on in your cities and see what a mess they make. The AI is limited to that. So it is possible to outproduce the AI at Monarch once you get the hang of optimising what your cities are doing.

Emperor is harder work and a lot more micromanagement for the same result. I don't play harder levels than that.

AAHZ · January 23, 2004, 11:36

ok here is the first file of my game 1150 BC. The stats are continents, 60% water, huge map, 8 civs including myself, roaming barbs, regent level. They gave me the dutch so im seafaring and aricultural. Im on a huge continent with only one neighbor the iroquois, who i have been about neck and neck with. we are about the same size and he only has 2 more techs than i do. my seafaring trait came in handy as i have found a beautiful island off to my west. on that island i discovered horses, which i quickly built a city on top of. i build the great lighthouse of course. i also have iron in the radius of one of my border cities. The Iroquois are far from me so i wont build up my forces until i get my horseman connected, which wont take long. i just got literature so im building libraries everywhere at the moment. i am REXing like crazy to keep up with the iroquois, and i will continue to REX after my libraries are built. I can currently support about twice as many units as i need to right now, but its good to know if the iroquois attack me i can pump out some troops and still not go over budget.

edit- i also have ivory and math so you know im going to build zeus!

vmxa1 · January 23, 2004, 12:06

Quote:

Originally posted by AAHZ
wow dosent seem like theres that much of a difference based on those numbers but it sure plays like it. regent level seems to me be the "normal" level. Monarch seems to be the "hard" level with it becoming even more challenging as you go up the ladder. i guess even with 1 point and 5% differences, thats all the leg up the computer needs to get a huge lead on the player. maybie the only way to catch up is archer/horseman rush, and beat the AI into giving up all its tech. i HOPE thats not the only way to win.

will post my first save with summary a little later today.

They start with 3 beyond the ones you normally have. Then the small bonuses kick in. Cheaper trade and a big one is the support issue. That frees a lot of gold to be used for something else.
You can get back in the race by force or GL or better empire management. As you move up the option to use force gets harder to do as they get even moe units and even settlers.

vmxa1 · January 23, 2004, 12:10

edit- i also have ivory and math so you know im going to build zeus!

Now that is just too mean.

Huge with 8, man you will be going nuts trying to fill up all that land.

AAHZ · January 23, 2004, 12:17

heh heh, i just hope nobody beats me to the punch (zeus).

also i love to REX, and i am good at managing large empires, so it wont take long to fill up. needless to say the other 6 civs are all crammed in on that other continent so me and the iroquois should be the 2 powerhouses.

vmxa1 · January 23, 2004, 13:26

I just took a peek at the 1950AD game.
You can win either way of course.

Why do you let the zulu have that stack next ot Muscat, which only has on TOW?

Why do you have Aztec cities on the mainland?

Cities are placed very far apart.

Worker on automate? I did not check, but I see mines on tiles that cannot be worked. I see irrigated tiles that cannot be worked.

I got some errands to do and then I will look at the dutch game, thanks.

AAHZ · January 23, 2004, 14:21

the 1950 AD game isnt mine it is nisku's. i havent even looked at it yet myself.

Nisku · January 23, 2004, 14:43

Oh that stack, I'll just wipe them out quickly if they declare war it's all industrial age units. I'm also getting bored and lazy since I've already won, that's why I have my cities set to governers and my workers on automate. I never do that unless I know the game is already in the bag.

Not sure what you mean about Aztec cities on the mainland, if you mean those 2 or 3 cities inside my empire those are because of culture flips I should have razed the Aztec cities instead since my culture is inferior to them.

My cities are placed very far apart, that is what you need for the end game. The ones on the island that I started on are mostly founded by me (you can check the city names). The ones on the mainland are conquered cities. If I was an obsessive freak like some of the players on this forum I could abandon all the conquered cities and refound them so they are placed optimally.

The strategy for this game was to place my cities very close together at the beginning, something like this -

o_ _ x _ P _ x _ _ o

- P is my palace city
- x are temporary cities that I abandon later in the game
- o are permanent cities placed with no overlaping radius

and the same to the north and the south of the palace.

vmxa1 · January 23, 2004, 16:27

Ah sorry got confused. Nisku the thing about the Zulu is they could attack anytime and with 4 units they may get lucky and take the city. If they do and raze, that is no fun.

I would surround them with MA and put two MI in the city so nothing funny could happen.

vmxa1 · January 23, 2004, 16:28

AAHZ are you using Accel Production?

AAHZ · January 23, 2004, 16:30

yes i always have accel prod on. so what do you think so far?