Thread Tools
Old January 22, 2004, 10:47   #31
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Compare the number of persons who have lived much of their lives under socialist/left totatlitatian states than under right ones. Once you think of the Soviet Union and Communist China, it is not much point in counting further.
All that shows is that extreme left wing dictators have had more success than extreme right wing dictators. Says nothing about the general consensus of opinion among the left, nor it's relation to democracy.
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:25   #32
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Across the United States, the party that opposes initiative and referendum "religiously" are the Democrats.

'Nuff said.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:26   #33
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
Opposing referendum is a fair comment but "opposes initiative" is meaningless.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:30   #34
Solly
Emperor
 
Solly's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,515
I am in favour of the headscarf ban. But anyway, I'm not saying your opinions have to follow the crowds.

But denouncing the decisions of a relative majority when they decide for example that Le Pen is the second most-favoured politician, or when they elect Bush, is what seems left-wingers like to do.
Solly is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:40   #35
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
Yeah, when a candidate from the left gets elected the followers of the right wing party say "oh, the people voted for him, we'll get behind them and support the new leader as much as possible and not complain about what they are doing at all."
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:43   #36
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Across the United States, the party that opposes initiative and referendum "religiously" are the Democrats.
That's because the Dums are a center-right elitist party.
Unlike the Repugs, who are far right and are more inclined to find legitimacy in a mob they carefully manipulate
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:45   #37
Solly
Emperor
 
Solly's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,515
I've never known right-wing politicians to say they will refuse to work with people from the left after they were rightfully elected!

Quote:
The leader of Burnley borough council, Labour councillor Stuart Caddey, said he would refuse to work with the BNP.

He said: "We will not work with the BNP. I'm quite clear on that."

He added: "It is a disaster. People are waking up this morning asking where this takes us.

"It has happened. Nothing will detract from what I and the Labour council want to deliver here in Burnley."
Solly is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:50   #38
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
True, neither of the main US parties is in any way left wing.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:51   #39
Solly
Emperor
 
Solly's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,515
Quote:
True, neither of the main US parties is in any way left wing.
What about the Democratic wing of the Democratic party?

Solly is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:52   #40
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
If they are democratic they can't be left wing, as you pointed out yourself.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:52   #41
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

That's because the Dums are a center-right elitist party.
Unlike the Repugs, who are far right and are more inclined to find legitimacy in a mob they carefully manipulate
Spiffor. Dem Dums are elitist. Very much so. They **** back their heads and look down their pointy noses at the common folk and say, "Legislation is too important and complex to be put into the hands of average person."
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:54   #42
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
Yes. What's wrong with that?

You wouldn't let an average man on the street operate on your brain tumour, why let one run your country?
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:56   #43
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
I don't know for Britain, but in France, Le Pen is appreciated by about 25% of people and utterly loathed by the remaining 75%.
Most French right-wingers outright reject to work with Le Pen, and those who do suffer from a very bad reputation among the reight-wing voters.

That must mean right-wing people are fundamentally antidemocratic
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:56   #44
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
But denouncing the decisions of a relative majority when they decide for example that Le Pen is the second most-favoured politician, or when they elect Bush, is what seems left-wingers like to do.
Denouncing the decisions is rare, IMHO. I was scared about Le Pen's support, but I wouldn't denounce the people's decision. I would ask why though, and realise that immigration needed to take a higher priority.

And I have seen right wingers refuse to work with left-wingers. Blair kicking Livingstone out of the Labour Party, when it was clear who the public wanted. Declaring you won't work with someone is not a rash act. There are people I wouldn't work with, whether they were elected or not.
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:57   #45
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
Yes. What's wrong with that?

You wouldn't let an average man on the street operate on your brain tumour, why let one run your country?
Well put
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 11:57   #46
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
Opposing referendum is a fair comment but "opposes initiative" is meaningless.
MikeH, just so you understand, "initiative" is the process whereby the people may place a referendum on the ballot themselves by gathering a prescribed number of votes on petitions.

This process is renown in Kalifornia, and was most recently used to remove an arrogant, lying, cheating and stealing Democrat governor to be replaced by the far-right Austrian known as the Terminator.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:00   #47
Solly
Emperor
 
Solly's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,515
Quote:
Blair kicking Livingstone out of the Labour Party, when it was clear who the public wanted
Ahem, there was another reason, wasn't there.

"You wouldn't let an average man on the street operate on your brain tumour, why let one run your country? "

I'm wondering what exactly your political philosophy is these days Mike..?
Solly is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:00   #48
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
Ah, that's a US thing then, we don't have that here. I absolutely oppose that, what a silly idea!

Yes... KKKalifornia.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:00   #49
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Spiffor. Dem Dums are elitist.
I believe you, and I actually like to describe myself as a "populist in the rightful meaning", i.e. as a person who thinks we should strongly trust the voters and accepts their decisions. For example, as anti-death penalty as I am, I think it should be reestablished if a popular majority wants it in a referendum.

Quote:
Very much so. They **** back their heads and look down their pointy noses at the common folk and say, "Legislation is too important and complex to be put into the hands of average person."
This is a dirty behaviour that is way too common in politics. Politicians either ignore the "rabble", or manipulate it. Dums are very good at the first, and Repugs have done a great job in the second category this term.
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:00   #50
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
MikeH, you represent the views of the average Democrat in the United States. Government is just too important to be left to the people.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:03   #51
Stuie
King
 
Stuie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Philly
Posts: 2,961
Quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
But denouncing the decisions of a relative majority when ..... they elect Bush, is what seems left-wingers like to do.
Majority relative to what? Must you be reminded that the popular majority voted for Al Gore???

Candidate (Party Label) Popular Vote Total Percent of Popular Vote

Al Gore (Democrat) 50,999,897 48.38

George W. Bush (Republican) 50,456,002 47.87

Is the Electoral College the "relative majority"?
__________________
"Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - Guynemer
Stuie is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:13   #52
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
1. 80% of people are idiots who care more about football and Big Brother than how whoever runs their country will affect them.

2. Politicians (of all parties) are self serving liars cheats and con men and the only reason any of them ever get elected is because of point 1.

3. In general stuff that fvcks up rich people and helps poor people doesn't make me angry so it's good.

4. Being free to act, look, worship, get high, fornicate, however you want is absolutely fine as long as you aren't hurting someone else physically or mentally.

5. If in doubt about a certain issue argue against whatever Park Avenue thinks because 99.9% of the time I agree with the people he's trying to troll.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:17   #53
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
MikeH, you represent the views of the average Democrat in the United States. Government is just too important to be left to the people.
Do they also support increasing and improving state education so that the majority of the population are educated enough to know that voting Republican is silly?
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:19   #54
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
1. 80% of people are idiots who care more about football and Big Brother than how whoever runs their country will affect them.


Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
2. Politicians (of all parties) are self serving liars cheats and con men and the only reason any of them ever get elected is because of point 1.
I wouldn't say that. I think if you scrutanise anyone as much as you scrutanise Blair, you'd find everyone tells a few lies. Sure, they all lie, so does everyone. I don't accept they do it more often.

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
4. Being free to act, look, worship, get high, fornicate, however you want is absolutely fine as long as you aren't hurting someone else physically or mentally.


Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
5. If in doubt about a certain issue argue against whatever Park Avenue thinks because 99.9% of the time I agree with the people he's trying to troll.
I'd disagree with that. I think most of the time he has a point, even when he's wrong. I can understand where he's coming from, and I don't think he's trying to troll as much as people thing. A lot less than the Sun at least.
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:22   #55
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
You are maybe right on #2 but mine's a safer assumption.

#5, yes, he does always have a point and he phrases it in an annoying way on purpose. Doesn't change the fact that mostly I disagree with him.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:22   #56
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned


Spiffor. Dem Dums are elitist. Very much so. They **** back their heads and look down their pointy noses at the common folk and say, "Legislation is too important and complex to be put into the hands of average person."
You should come to Florida. The Repug controled government (with the Prez' brother in charge) have refused to abide by citizen referrendums, are now planning on overturning them, and are planning to pass restrictions on us so we can't tell them what to do anymore.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:23   #57
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
#5, yes, he does always have a point and he phrases it in an annoying way on purpose. Doesn't change the fact that mostly I disagree with him.
True
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:24   #58
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
MikeH, I think you now have a clue as to why the Dems oppose initiative and referendum. The people are constantly electing Republicans which only PROVES how stupid they are and how they cannot be trusted with the reigns of government.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:25   #59
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You should come to Florida. The Repug controled government (with the Prez' brother in charge) have refused to abide by citizen referrendums, are now planning on overturning them, and are planning to pass restrictions on us so we can't tell them what to do anymore.
Details. Links.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old January 22, 2004, 12:27   #60
MikeH
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-League
OTF Moderator
 
MikeH's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:34
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
MikeH, I think you now have a clue as to why the Dems oppose initiative and referendum. The people are constantly electing Republicans which only PROVES how stupid they are and how they cannot be trusted with the reigns of government.
Yep! And I'm glad you agree that voting Republican is more stupid than voting Democrat.
__________________
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth

We've got both kinds
MikeH is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:34.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team