AU501: The Power of Seafaring

[Dominae]

Welcome all to the first Conquets Apolyton University course!

A teaser thread was opened earlier this week, but this is the real thing!

New to the Apolyton University?

Apolyton University is a school of strategy, where students sharpen their Civ3 skills and share their experiences in a series of thematic games. When playing an Apolyton University game, learning and teaching Civ3 strategy is more important than getting a high score, a fast finish, or even winning the game. Participants are encouraged to share their strategy during and after each AU game, and even to try several attempts.

All you need to do to get involved is to download one of the files provided below, play one of the savegames contained therein, and return here to write a brief report (and read everyone else's report too!).

Play with the Apolyton University mod!

In order to enrich the AU experience, the AU community has created the AU mod, whose main purpose is to challenge the player with a need for deeper strategy. In order to accomplish that goal, the mod tries to improve the AI and present the player with more strategic decisions, while changing as little as possible from the stock game.

The mod can be used to play this course, and in case you really like it (we think you will!), it's also available to download for other epic games you might wish to play. More about the Conquests AU mod, including a list of changes and reasoning behind them, can be found here.

For those of you who dislike mods, fret not: AU501 is also available in a stock rules version.

AU501: The Power of Seafaring.

The theme for the first Conquests AU course is the Seafaring trait. Your goal therefore is to determine the ins and outs of this wonderful new trait. Here are some game variables that might want to know before you begin:

Civ: Byzantines
Rules: Default
Victory Conditions: All
Rivals: ?
Difficulty: Any

World Size: Large
Land Form: ?
Climate and Temperature: Standard
Age: 3 billion
Barbarians: ?

The amount of map "tweaking" by the scenario creator is ~5-10%. This means that you can expect a pretty standard game of Civ3, but if you're very familiar with the map generator some things may strike you as fishy. Hopefully this will not detract from your enjoyment.

Let's Play!

Here is what you need to do to play this scenario:

Make sure you own and have installed Civ3: Conquests. You must also download the Conquests official beta patch v1.15 available here. We're sorry to require this from all of you, but it's much simpler to organize this way. The patch is very good, as it fixes many problems with the retail version of the game. You can always uninstall it after you finish playing this scenario.

Next, download one of the zip archives provided below. The first one is for the Stock version of the scenario, the second the Mod version. Inside the archives you'll find a 4000BC savegame file for each difficulty from Regent to Deity. Simply extract the desired one to your Conquests "Saves" folder, run Conquests and fire up the game using the Load Game option. Simple!

Actually, if you're planning on playing the AU mod version, it's a bit more complicated (just a bit). In the post after the Mod archive (third one down), you'll find another zip file called "AU mod graphics". If you want the Industrial era tech tree to display correctly, you'll need to extract the file it contains (along with the path - just use "Extract to...") to your Conquests "Scenarios" folder. Doing so will create an "AU Mod" folder where the game will look for any special graphics the mod may need. We're sorry if this is an inconvenience.

Finally, as you play the game, remember to report back here periodically in the various DAR ("During Action Report") threads. This is where you'll post your exploits and strategy comments for all to see, and read those of others. However, keep in mind that these are spoiler threads, so try to finish playing each block before reading the corresponding thread.

DAR1: 4000BC-2150BC (the first 40 turns)
DAR2: First Dromon
DAR3: Contact with all other civs

Please wait until you've contacted all civs in-game before reading everyone's comments in DARs 1,2 and 3. Curragh results may vary, which can result in spoilers!

DAR4: Steam Power
DAR5: Flight
DAR6: Endgame
Post-game comments

Enjoy, and may your Byzantine civilization stand the test of time!

[Dominae]

Stock:

[Dominae]

Mod:

[Dominae]

Here's the optional graphics file mentioned above:

[Dominae]

Dominae's standard pre-game disclaimer:

This scenario is not especially hard, although it may seem that way at times. If the going gets tough, my recommendation is to try and think outside the box (i.e. your standard Civ3 experiences); I think you'll find the difficulty only lies in your preconceptions about how things should play out. I could be wrong, though, in which case I'll gladly accept partial responsibility.

Also, do not forget to play to your civ's strengths.

And, please, have fun, no matter what!


Dominae

[alexman]

Thanks!!!

Question: What version of the mod are the AU mod files?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Question: What version of the mod are the AU mod files?

Version 1.01b, which contains: 1) all the changes we've discussed and voted on, PLUS 2) alexman's AI flavors, which make the AI's research choices smarter. I hope this is acceptable to all you mod-folk.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Dominae, are you sure this is a large map? The tech costs are coming out a lot lower than expected.

[notyoueither]

I'm a newb, so forgive the question if the answer is available elsewhere, but how did I get Warrior Code from a hut when Pottery was available?

[ducki]

Nathan - It runs like Large on my system - first AI settles took a much longer time than my usual standard and it's about the same as my Large test game(singular).
I am, however, MMing. Are you using the fish tile a lot more than you normally would?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Dominae, are you sure this is a large map? The tech costs are coming out a lot lower than expected.

I'm sure it's a Large map. I have no idea why tech costs would be different from what you're expecting. Are you using the AU mod version?

Originally posted by notyoueither
I'm a newb, so forgive the question if the answer is available elsewhere, but how did I get Warrior Code from a hut when Pottery was available?

IIRC, the cheaper techs are more likely to be chosen but the more expensive ones are still possibilities. Were you researching Pottery? You never get the tech you're currently researching.


Dominae

[Theseus]

I'd like to give a BIG round of applause to alexman and Dominae for getting us here.

There are a lot of people involved in all that we are trying to achieve, but CHEERS to the two of them! I feel that a single post just ain't enough... we need an appreciation thread, nay, a forum, nay, a WEBSITE for these two!

(pending the evilness of Dominae's map )

Mucho thanks, and on with the game!

(And D, your avatar still freaks me out)

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Dominae
IIRC, the cheaper techs are more likely to be chosen but the more expensive ones are still possibilities. Were you researching Pottery? You never get the tech you're currently researching.

I set research to CB at 0 beakers and went after the hut with the worker. Should have got pottery, instead I got WC. The next hut I got CB, after starting pottery.

I have never received a tech other than the cheapest not being researched.

[notyoueither]

Also, the AI civs are researching in a very strange fashion. None of them went for Iron Working before I had it after doing Map Making.

[Cort Haus]

I notice only 1 person so far has downloaded the stock game. Everyone else has gone for the AU mod. I have a couple of questions :

1. Has the C3C AU mod been widely tested by many players on many maps for those esoteric balance issues which can significantly affect the game?

2. If I opt for the stock rules, but everyone else plays the AU mod, my game is worth little if there is no-one to compare it with.

I'm thinking that if I do play the AU mod, I'll be learning more about that than the Seafaring trait.

[alexman]

notyoureither, the AU mod does affect AI research choices. The choices are supposed to be more random, so you can't rely on them all to go for Iron Working as before, for example. AI civs also take into consideration their traits when deciding which tech to research next, which is not done in stock.

The AU mod definitely doesn't affect the free tech from huts (I have received WC insted of pottery before ion stock), and it doesn't affect the beaker cost to research any tech other than Philosophy and Republic.

Cort Haus, the AU mod is not supposed to affect your game experience much compared to stock, although it will probably make the game seem a bit harder than the same difficulty under stock rules.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
1. Has the C3C AU mod been widely tested by many players on many maps for those esoteric balance issues which can significantly affect the game?

This is our first game with this version of the mod, but many of the changes have been tested before and elsewhere, though Conquests is a whole new fish, so we're likely to find ... oddities that we remedy in a later version of the mod. It's not competitive here, it's all about learning, so that's not as big a deal as on something like CFC's GotM.

2. If I opt for the stock rules, but everyone else plays the AU mod, my game is worth little if there is no-one to compare it with.

Actually, the opposite is true. Even if just one player plays stock Civ, that gives us a (admittedly limited) baseline with which to compare the modded version. If we make these changes and noone plays stock, we have nothing to which we can point and say "See how much better the mod made this?" or "Wow, that doesn't really help at all, let's change it back!"

And again, it's not really competitive - aside from the yearning to be praised on your own gameplay by the old pros here - so every game is worth reviewing, even if it includes an Ancient Age defeat, since there's always something that someone here will notice as interesting, clever, risky, or odd.

I'm thinking that if I do play the AU mod, I'll be learning more about that than the Seafaring trait.

You'll also have to unlearn a little bit. For example, Sea squares were modded to cost 2 movement points to enter. Seafaring has 3-move curraghs. I forgot the change and was going to use moves 2 and 3 to pop into the sea and look about, then right back out, just like a normal game - except my curragh didn't let me move back out! "Eeek! What happened?!?" I moaned. Then, I remembered something about movement, checked the mod thread and sure enough, I forgot to read the readme.
hehe.

Seriously, though, I really like C3C even without the mod. The mod keeps you on your toes, though. I think it does result in a stronger AI and more interesting decisions for the player, though.
Either way, AU Courses are a great way to compare gameplay with others without worrying about score or victory date and just concetrate on improving your own gameplay.

Let your hair down and have at it!

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by ducki

Even if just one player plays stock Civ, that gives us a (admittedly limited) baseline with which to compare the modded version. If we make these changes and noone plays stock, we have nothing to which we can point and say "See how much better the mod made this?" or "Wow, that doesn't really help at all, let's change it back!"

Good point, duckie. I'm aware of the AU philosophy, having enjoyed several, but I'm also aware of that strategic comparisons between games with different rules have their limitations.

I think I'll go with the standard rules for this AU game, and maybe try out the mod on a random epic game.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
1. Has the C3C AU mod been widely tested by many players on many maps for those esoteric balance issues which can significantly affect the game?

No, this is probably it's first test game. You're all guinea pigs. Does that scare you?

2. If I opt for the stock rules, but everyone else plays the AU mod, my game is worth little if there is no-one to compare it with.

I'm thinking that if I do play the AU mod, I'll be learning more about that than the Seafaring trait.

Well, knowing the map and the changes in the AU mod, I'm confident that your experience will not be that different. At the very least you'll still learn about the power of Seafaring.

alexman's flavors create what is probably the biggest discrepancy from stock, which is why I wanted to test them seperately at first. Then again, without someone playing the stock game, we have no way of telling if the mod is working as intended!


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alexman

Cort Haus, the AU mod is not supposed to affect your game experience much compared to stock, although it will probably make the game seem a bit harder than the same difficulty under stock rules.

The feel of naval exploration is very different in the AU Mod. Under the standard rule, curraughs and galleys routinely move into back out of sea and even ocean tiles during the course of the turn. With the AU Mod, they move faster staying inland. Suicide runs with ships are also significantly less practical. So a comparison of when contacts were obtained between a standard rules game and an AU Mod game would be very much "apples and oranges."

I'm also highly skeptical that there is a valid basis for comparing performance in the early tech race between standard rules and the AU Mod. I won't spoil anything beyond saying that the tech race thus far has had a very different feel to it from any standard rules game I've ever played (including archipelago map ones).

[Catt]

I won't be able to download and start until tomorrow at the earliest.

Re: the "which tech comes from a popped hut" query: I just recently tested whether or not you can get an SGL from a tech "discovered" from a hut -- the test involved popping hundreds and hundreds of huts. From that experiment it appears that the tech a hut gives is heavily weighted towards the cheapest available tech, but that any available tech can be given. The two additional rules at play are: (1) no more techs once you enter the Medieval Age, even if you haven't discovered optional Ancient Age techs; and (2) you will not pop the tech you're currently researching (even at 0 beakers) unless that tech is the only tech available to you, in which case it is possible to pop your researched tech (i.e., if you research Writing at 0 beakers, and discover all techs other than Writing and its following techs, you will eventualy pop Writing from a hut).

Catt

[donZappo]

Originally posted by Catt
I won't be able to download and start until tomorrow at the earliest.

Re: the "which tech comes from a popped hut" query: I just recently tested whether or not you can get an SGL from a tech "discovered" from a hut -- the test involved popping hundreds and hundreds of huts. From that experiment it appears that the tech a hut gives is heavily weighted towards the cheapest available tech, but that any available tech can be given. The two additional rules at play are: (1) no more techs once you enter the Medieval Age, even if you haven't discovered optional Ancient Age techs; and (2) you will not pop the tech you're currently researching (even at 0 beakers) unless that tech is the only tech available to you, in which case it is possible to pop your researched tech (i.e., if you research Writing at 0 beakers, and discover all techs other than Writing and its following techs, you will eventualy pop Writing from a hut).

Catt

Gonna leave us hanging, Catt? Did you get any SGLs from goody hut techs?

[Myrddin]

I can't seem to get the files to extraxt - I'm using XP and am probably missing something obvious - any suggestions?

[vmxa1]

Yes find WinZip and use it. The XP extract is quite lame. I use to have that all the time.

[Master Zen]

I will give it a shot with the new AU mod although I have no clue what new goodies it has

[Arnelos]

I'm going to play it without the AU mod and see what that's like first. Then, time permitting, I'll play with the mod.

[Arnelos]

um... Dominae, the stock zip file is EMPTY

I guess I'll play with the mod afterall

[Arnelos]

Ok, the mod zip file has nothing in it but folders, no files

Am I the only one having that problem when trying to download it here?

[Arnelos]

MZ sent me the mod zip and Kloreep sent me the stock game zip.

I have no idea why when I try to download the files, I get an empty zip file.

[Cort Haus]

Arnelos, I got the files out of the stock zip fine with winzip.