AU501 - DAR1: 4000BC-2150BC - Page 6

ducki · February 23, 2004, 15:53

If your population doesn't increase in the next 50 turns and you don't settle any new towns in the next 50 turns, the screen is 100% correct.

As you grow, both population and # of towns, you bring in more commerce and, depending on your sliders, beakers.

If you default to minimum research, when you grow, you're still at minimum research, so your time-to-discovery is still 50.
If you default to maximum(for, er, maximum effect) as you grow, you will see the time-to-discovery drop, often dramatically, though not always (dramatically, that is), depending on the beaker cost of the tech.
By the same token, at minimum research, instead of seeing your time-to-discovery drop (as a result of increased income spent on research), you'll see your treasury grow dramatically as a result of increased per turn income deposited directly into your treasury.

Did that help, or did I just muddy the waters further?

conmcb25 · February 23, 2004, 15:58

No that clears it up, since I routinely check when I build a new city or add pop, I should be OK correct?

Rhothaerill · February 23, 2004, 16:07

Quote:

Originally posted by conmcb25

Ok what should you do?

How would you calculate the amount of turns needed, and why is the screen wrong or is it?

It's not necessarily that it's wrong. It's just that if you think about a tech in terms of beakers instead of turns it makes the decision easier whichever way you go. Using the tech formula (I don't have it handy at the moment but I can add it later if anyone who hasn't seen it before wants it

) writing would take 320 beakers on emperor level with no one else knowing the tech. In my case I decided that I wasn't going to push for philosophy and instead wanted to use the commerce for gold and unit upgrades instead of beakers. Yes I could have finished writing much sooner if I had bumped the slider to max or close to it as I would eventually produce more commerce as my empire grew. I just chose not to do that.

ducki · February 23, 2004, 16:15

Yeah, what Roth said - it's not that min, max, or in between are right or wrong.
Dom and I were arguing against the idea that if a tech says 50 turns when you found your capitol that it means it will take you 50 turns no matter what tax rate you set.

Basically we were saying that the slider doesn't know what it's talking about because it can only account for current conditions, which may work fairly well lategame but is very innacurate early game with such frequent population fluctuations and (in this case with a 4-turn pump) very frequent founding of new cities.

At least, I think that's what we were saying.

Side note: Lately I've been bitten by what someone mentioned as a potential bug, but may just be population fluctuation and the like - a tech that is due in "1 turn" actually taking 2 or 3 turns to complete. There's so many variables to look at(support costs, territory losses, corruption, etc), I haven't bothered trying to find it, but it has happened to me a few times. Basically, the slider isn't "always" right.

Rhothaerill · February 23, 2004, 16:39

Here is the formula I was talking about. I have not seen an update for the two new level factors in Conquests though.

[WorldSizeFactor * [10 * EditorCost * (1 - M/[1.75N])] / (10 * LevelFactor)]

WorldSizeFactor = (from tiny to huge): 160, 200, 240, 320, 400

LevelFactor = (from chieftain to deity): 10, 10, 10, 9, 8, 6

EditorCost: the tech-specific number that can be found in the Editor.

M is the number of civs that you have contact with that have the tech.

N is the total number of civs left in the game.

Square brackets mean a rounddown (truncation) of the result.

SirOsis · February 23, 2004, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki
Side note: Lately I've been bitten by what someone mentioned as a potential bug, but may just be population fluctuation and the like - a tech that is due in "1 turn" actually taking 2 or 3 turns to complete. There's so many variables to look at(support costs, territory losses, corruption, etc), I haven't bothered trying to find it, but it has happened to me a few times. Basically, the slider isn't "always" right.

I've noticed this as well. I'm pretty sure it was supposed to take 1 turn and the next turn it says it will take 1 turn again. At first I thought I just missed something because it was in a PBEM game but it has happened again. I haven't reallly tracked it down why it occured.

ducki · February 23, 2004, 16:58

I'm almost positive it's population fluctuation because:
-I've been doing a lot of 4-turn pump practice
-I've been trying to build lots more units
-I don't recall ever seeing it lategame - generally Ancient Age

Under these circumstances, I feel my pop may fluctuate enough to "lose" me just enough beakers to cost me a turn, especially in the late Ancient Age with a 4-turn pump, since by that time, settlers have to travel far enough I can sometimes have 2-3 on the road any given turn. In fact, with roaded riverside tiles, losing 2 pop (at least) every 4 turns is probably a major cause, at least in my case. I could be wrong. I'm horrible at analyzing the game mechanics just because I don't like doing it.

alexman · February 23, 2004, 16:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
Here is the formula I was talking about. I have not seen an update for the two new level factors in Conquests though.

[WorldSizeFactor * [10 * EditorCost * (1 - M/[1.75N])] / (10 * LevelFactor)]

I'm not sure about that formula. I always thought it was:
WorldSizeFactor * EditorCost * (1 - 0.5*M/(N-1)) / LevelFactor

I say that because when you have contact with everyone else and you are the only one who doesn't know a tech (M=N-1), it costs exactly half-price to research.

By the way, for LevelFactor=7 for Demigod and 4 for Sid.

Rhothaerill · February 23, 2004, 17:06

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman

I'm not sure about that formula. I always thought it was:
WorldSizeFactor * EditorCost * (1 - 0.5*M/(N-1)) / LevelFactor

I say that because when you have contact with everyone else and you are the only one who doesn't know a tech (M=N-1), it costs exactly half-price to research.

By the way, for LevelFactor=7 for Demigod and 4 for Sid.

Interesting. Did it get changed again? The one I posted was the last update that I've seen.

Maybe I missed a change somewhere.

BTW the one I posted still does work when rounded down (i.e. 7/(1.75*8) = .50; 9/(1.75*10) = .51, etc.)

vmxa1 · February 23, 2004, 17:33

Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far

This is what was posted at CFC for CivIII at 1.29f. It seems a bit off for C3C.

MM is map size.
CF is cost factor for level.
N is the number of civs you have contact with that know the tech.
CL is number of civs still in the game.
COST is the research factor for the level.

Anyone know what if any thing is different for C3C?

alexman · February 23, 2004, 17:38

CFC?

I still think that CFC formula is wrong, even for PTW.

And nothing has changed in C3C regarding tech costs for research. I think tech values have been changed for trading with the AI though.

Dominae · February 23, 2004, 19:23

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki
Side note: Lately I've been bitten by what someone mentioned as a potential bug, but may just be population fluctuation and the like - a tech that is due in "1 turn" actually taking 2 or 3 turns to complete. There's so many variables to look at(support costs, territory losses, corruption, etc), I haven't bothered trying to find it, but it has happened to me a few times. Basically, the slider isn't "always" right.

If slider says 1 turn at the end of your turn you will get the tech the next turn, unless one of the following things happens:

1. You lose a city.

2. An enemy unit steps onto a tile currently worked by one of your cities, and the Governor does not reassign the Laborer to a tile with equivalent or more Commerce outupt.

3. One of your cities falls into disorder.

4. You enter a period of Anarchy.

There may be more but you get the idea. Population fluctuations have nothing to do with it, because Commerce is tallied up and divided before Food is added to the box.

Dominae

vmxa1 · February 23, 2004, 20:07

You could also change the citizens working and failed to notice that it affected the research. I just pop rushed a structure and saw my tech go from next turn to 2 turns. So it must have been enough to push it over the edge and force me to change things to get the beakers back up.
It would have been easy to have missed the change.

Theseus · February 23, 2004, 20:42

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki
Side note: Lately I've been bitten by what someone mentioned as a potential bug, but may just be population fluctuation and the like - a tech that is due in "1 turn" actually taking 2 or 3 turns to complete. There's so many variables to look at(support costs, territory losses, corruption, etc), I haven't bothered trying to find it, but it has happened to me a few times. Basically, the slider isn't "always" right.

Yeah, me too. If I can afford it, when I get down to one turn I'll set science at that level plus 10%, wasted beakers be damned.

Edit: On reading later posts, I have been assuming that the reason was more or less something like what vmxa1 posted... I use city governors for mood, so little tiny changes in commerce / research rate happen often.

Aqualung71 · February 23, 2004, 22:56

Has anyone ever done one of those calculator programmes (like the combat calculator, etc) for tech cost? That would be pretty handy.

vmxa1 · February 23, 2004, 23:26

Here is an Xls with the formula I was given. I am not sure what is needed to correct it for C3C. I noticed that it seemed to require adjusting what I thought was the known civs at times.

ducki · February 23, 2004, 23:34

Quote:

You could also change the citizens working and failed to notice that it affected the research.

Before my recent obsession with pumps and MM, I might go along with you on that, and it's a good suggestion, but I know for a fact that it's not the case. I have "Wait at end of Turn" on and I double-check happies and adjust the slider last thing each turn.
It's not Anarchy, but I guess it's possible that #1, 2, 3 from Dom's list are possibilities.

Aeson · February 24, 2004, 01:26

I've had it happen 2 turns in a row (without modifying the slider the second turn), which would mean I would have had to have lost over 50% of my total commerce capacity between the first and second turn if it's not a bug. No chance of that, no war, no disorder, no anarchy.

Dominae · February 24, 2004, 01:32

Did the map size change between turns?

Aeson · February 24, 2004, 01:58

I don't know... maybe some civs unlearned it?

(it was a tech I was first to IIRC)

DrSpike · February 25, 2004, 15:24

I don't know if anyway is still reading these.

I was away when the game started so I got a late start. I wasn't sure if I'd finish it in time so waited till the end of the game to add some thoughts here. Hence I have a sort of DAR bomb.

Opening thoughts

After the initial joy of seeing the blatant settler factory gift like many I agonised over whether to found at the starting location or move 1 square northwest. It was a close call between founding immediately and building a worker with the hut safely being popped by cultural expansion, or moving and using the start worker to pop it. I chose the latter because of the extra commerce and retaining the option of early curraghs. I guessed we were on a small landmass but obviously how small would determine whether to go for early curraghs or just maximise the value of the settler factory gift.

I popped a settler from the hut, which founded Adrianople on the game.

Then, since my original worker was misplaced and could not improve tiles immediately, it still made perfect sense to use the fish and take a 10 turn worker. I had also calculated this would be necessary to set up the factory asap, which would operate at sizes 4-6 on a continuous 6/8/7/9. Since I could use warriors from Adrianople I went straight for a granary after the worker. With a forest chop I could get the granary early and build a 5 turn settler starting from 3 pop with the bin half full, even though I hadn't quite finished setting up the 4-turn factory. Once I had uncovered enough ground to see that such a strategy was better than early curraghs I indeed chose this option.

The first settler from the capital came in 2590.

DrSpike · February 25, 2004, 15:45

Emperor Level, stock rules.

Research

Full bore Pottery was always a given first here, and in the circumstances I chose to follow up with a full bore writing. The nice opening and isolated Civs would make delaying Philosophy until after Code of Laws so as to get free Republic a powerful strategy.

Expansion and workers

Efficiency is the watchword here I think, so aside from the settler that Adrianople built (before the factory was up and running) to give me curraghs asap all settlers and workers were to come from the factory. There were 2 obvious sites to the West and East, so these were my priority. After that the nice land was beginning to run out, so I ran the factory as a 2 turn worker producer for several turns. All cities founded had good squares to work before the workers came along to improve tiles.

Curraghs

Adrianople was not on the coast, so built warriors, then a barracks. The other 3 cities built curraghs, with the first exploring Japanese waters, and the other 2 heading North and East respectively.

2110BC

The screenie shows the situation in 2110BC. We are researching Code of Laws, and it will arrive in 15 turns. Barracks are beginning to go up for when we find a suitable ~~victim~~ people to bring civilization to.

Hermann the Lombard · February 26, 2004, 15:46

Hmm...I've been deciding whether to post my belated efforts or not. Like Dr. Spike, I got a late start, and from that I've been playing at my customary snail-like pace. Just reaching Flight late last night. -- Admiral Glacier

conmcb25 · February 26, 2004, 15:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Hmm...I've been deciding whether to post my belated efforts or not. Like Dr. Spike, I got a late start, and from that I've been playing at my customary snail-like pace. Just reaching Flight late last night. -- Admiral Glacier

nah, go ahead and post it!!!!!

I just got to the point of meeting all the CIV's yesterday and need to post that soon.

Better late than never

Rhothaerill · February 26, 2004, 15:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Hmm...I've been deciding whether to post my belated efforts or not. Like Dr. Spike, I got a late start, and from that I've been playing at my customary snail-like pace. Just reaching Flight late last night. -- Admiral Glacier

Go ahead and post.

Late start or not, it doesn't matter. Apolyton University games are supposed to be fun and learning experiences so there is no time limit on them.

ducki · February 26, 2004, 15:53

Naturally, if you're taking the course, post your findings!
It's not a race, although some of us were so excited to get back to AU that we devoured 501 like the last "special" brownie in the world.

Post, post! The more the merrier!