Anti-intellectualism

[Spiffor]

After reading this thread and reacting to some posts (all of my posts above), here are my general impressions.

1. My personal experience:
I have been an "intellectual" all my life, sometimes pompous, most of the times nice. I answered questions in class, I had good grades with little work. I generally was pompous with people I didn't like, using complicated words they couldn't understand even when simpler words could have done the trick just as well.
I am a harsh critic of trash TV (there are no tabloids similar to the Sun or Bild in France), as it promotes thoughtlessness, and simply shut people's brain power off. Now, I acknowledge there is a reason as to why people want to shut their brains off when they come back from an exhaustive day at work. Heck, I experienced it myself when I was working: the first thing I wanted to do when coming home from my dumb job was to play Diablo2 to no end: useless to say, I felt falling dumber day by day.

However, I almost never recieved any flak for being intellectual, even though I was depicted as such. I recieved much flak because my (rare) first name was starred on TV in a show called "[First name] is stupid". I recieved some limited flak because I wasn't conform to the group I was hanging with. I don't recall having recieved any flak because I was intellectual, maybe just some defiance during the time I was pompous.

As such, when I criticize the Whaleboys and Enigmas, I'm not "yet another dumbass rugby player". OTOH, I remember very well that my greatest popularity surge in highschool was the moment I outranked the Mrs. know-it-all in physics, despite both her parents being science teachers. By the way, she was the only "intellectual" whom I saw being widely loathed.

As a result, I can safely say that I've never seen intellect as a direct reason for discrimination. Attitude, OTOH, is.

2. And that's why I think Whaleboy's and especially Enigma_nova's attitude explain why they recieved such flak.

In their posts, they seem to believe the use of their brains make them magically able to know the Truth better than the others. That their message is something worth listening, worth acknowledging, and those who don't listen or don't want to listen are just ignorant or stupid people.
They, OTOH, believe they have nothing to learn from the ognorant masses. Agathon too, as he openly says the opinion of ignorant people should not get any respect.

Despite all they can say in this thread to make it look like they don't take themselves as superior, their arrogant mindset shows, as per the snippets I quoted in my previous posts.

These guys have the pompous attitude that make them unpopular, unlike many other "intellectuals" on 'Poly (myself included) who can get along fine with people.

3. Now, after reading Drogue's and PH's posts, I'm willing to believe the problem is different in Britain than merely Whaleboy's attitude problem. The Tabloids, and I guess a general history of elitism, make Britain different to other countries in this regard (this is an impression I also have from the "democracy" threads, where almost all our elitists are British).

It doesn't strike me as impossible that intellectuals may suffer from on-sight discrimination in Britain. This deosn't mean, though, that attitudes contribute nothing to it. I'm sure the amount of flak a British intellectual gets varies widely according to his personality.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
BeBro: I base my arguments also upon more objective evidence, as does others on this thread, for example, attitudes in the media.

So far, all were speaking from their personal impressions, which is fine, but doesn´t count as objective evidence about the level of anti-intellectualism anywhere. What was the objective evidence about attitudes in the media?

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Agathon
Come on people. Let's just admit that the masses are ignorant and that all of us fall in this classification about most things.

Does this quote not seem ignorant and thus place its supporters in the masses they so dislike?
Just a thought...

We should treat everyone with respect, but that does not mean treating their silly opinions with any sort of respect at all.

I think we should consider these opinions, and think about them.
After thinking for 1.2 seconds we can dismiss their idiocy, but every once in a while someone (whom we associate with idiots) makes a good idea.

It was all very depressing.

Change job.
(The reason why I can't obtain employment is because I will not regulate my behaviour or personality for anyone... nice, eh?)

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova

Does this quote not seem ignorant and thus place its supporters in the masses they so dislike?

Not as long you read both parts of the sentence you quoted

[Solly]

TCO is getting there.

[Enigma_Nova]

Always have a plan to kill everyone you know.

Okie dokie.
Enigma plans his suicide
Well, I've made plans for everyone else I know, haven't I?

why is arrogance such a crime?

'cuz the conformists wanna beat us down into being one of them.
I think it comes from the "Know no gods bar me" thing.
Those with power didn't want their followers thinking that they could invent their own rules, so those that believed in their ability to think were vilified.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by BeBro
Not as long you read both parts of the sentence you quoted

Didn't know what he meant by 'fall in this classification of most things'. I suspect a typo.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
'cuz the conformists wanna beat us down into being one of them.

If everybody were so hellbent on forcing others to conform, then why do they go around celebrating athletes and actors rather than trying to force them to conform as well?

[yavoon]

so yah basically whaleboy(after reading all this), ur arrogant and whiny.

dont worry, anti-intellectualism is not your problem.

[TCO]

Look, dude. Even if you're right and there is anti-intellectualism (and yeah...sure there is), you are going to have to live with the world the way it is. You pvssy.

[Nubclear]

I should've known Enigma would have come to this thread....
I told Enigma his arrogant ways would make him unpopular. He told me he wasn't arrogant and that I was wrong

I got the last laugh

[monkspider]

This thread has shown a lot of pseudo-intellectual kids with an amusing lack of self-awareness.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by monkspider
This thread has shown a lot of pseudo-intellectual kids with an amusing lack of self-awareness.

so soon you forget what it was like to be 18, monkspider? Having all the answers to the questions of the universe? Ah to much simpler times

[Whaleboy]

If you're so smart, why are you verbose? Read THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE.

I'm a professional writer. Therefore, I am verbose.

Practically everybody on this thread has stated that they dislike arrogant people. Some have also accused you of displaying arrogance. However, you continue to assume that the "general and wider contexted issue" that has caused you to receive flak is your alleged intelligence, not your alleged arrogance

Its my own experience and since I am aware of its nuances and this forum isn't, I'm in the best position to judge whether it is anti-intellectualism or me being a social reject. While I am not a social animal, I am well liked and likeable, in and out of class, and the people attacking me tend to be the townie neandertals, so I can tell you that it is anti-intellectualism. My lecturers concur, my friends concur.

in other words, your opinions apparently refute a more general and wider contexted issue, while the opinions of those who disagree with you apparently fail to refute a different general and wider contexted issue.

To what are you referring, because that makes no sense? If it refers to what you quoted, its a pretty big strawman.

Like what -- more personal experience that doesn't count for squat since it's not your personal experience?

Let's see... surveys into differences in language, second opinions that the language of more intellectual kids is different to that of sporty or neandertal kids when asking a single question.. that kind of thing. You seem an intellectual chap, use critical thinking on that one

It's not very likely, IMO, that a quadriplegic cretin would possess the same general level of talent as, say, Leonardo da Vinci.

At what? As soon as you start defining talent as anything other than "capability" (as in, capability at... etc), you are immediately stratifying people. I say that capability is merely something that we can do (by definition), therefore, all are equally capable. I am as equally capable as an inanimate object in that respect, but in terms of humans, since we don't know for sure, we have to use Occams razor to come back to that point.

So you wouldn't be just a tad bit offended if somebody called you a meatbag? Interesting.

I'm on the Atkins diet, its probably quite close to the truth

In their posts, they seem to believe the use of their brains make them magically able to know the Truth better than the others. That their message is something worth listening, worth acknowledging, and those who don't listen or don't want to listen are just ignorant or stupid people.

If you read my posts, and know of my philosophy you will realise that I believe a notion such as "the truth" is a fallacy. Again if you read my posts, you will realise that people who don't listen are fine, but it is those that attack the intellectuals that I find to be ignorant.

They, OTOH, believe they have nothing to learn from the ognorant masses.

A blatant misrepresentation. If a member of the "ignorant masses" says something in his particular field, or a comment to me that I find interesting, I shall learn from it. I do not make distinctions. Having said that, if I am talking to two people about an intellectual matter, an intellectual and a layman, I will take the intellectuals view more seriously.

Despite all they can say in this thread to make it look like they don't take themselves as superior, their arrogant mindset shows, as per the snippets I quoted in my previous posts.

WTF? Arrogant mindset? Where? Where do I say either directly or indirectly that I am superior. You need to back yourself up a lot more when you make these claims.

These guys have the pompous attitude that make them unpopular, unlike many other "intellectuals" on 'Poly (myself included) who can get along fine with people.

I can tell you for a fact that I do not have a pompous attitude at college, and only may appear so on the internet when people make fallacious and misrepresented personal attacks, instead of actually critiquing my argument. I take ad hominems and strawmen to be a sign of inferior reasoning, as I was taught in critical thinking, so be careful. That is not an arrogant statement. That is advice. Retract your ad hominems.

Whaleboy's attitude problem

Please, enlighten me!!

It doesn't strike me as impossible that intellectuals may suffer from on-sight discrimination in Britain. This deosn't mean, though, that attitudes contribute nothing to it. I'm sure the amount of flak a British intellectual gets varies widely according to his personality.

Oh of course, but that goes with anyone. Abrasive people, no matter who they are, will get more flak. However, in Britain, intellectuals seem to get it more than others, perhaps because of assumptions of arrogance, pompousness and egotism that you seem to assume yourself, for example, in me, with little or no evidence (all of which is anecdotal).

So far, all were speaking from their personal impressions, which is fine, but doesn´t count as objective evidence about the level of anti-intellectualism anywhere.

Agreed.

What was the objective evidence about attitudes in the media?

See Drogue's posts. Intellectuals have a tendency to be laughed at by default in the British tabloids, I can think of numerous referenced to "boffins", "ivory towers", "geeks" etc when forced to read such wastes of paper like the Sun or the Mirror.

If everybody were so hellbent on forcing others to conform, then why do they go around celebrating athletes and actors rather than trying to force them to conform as well?

If you're looking for a serious answer, I suspect its something to do with such people exemplifying such notions enshrined in working people's culture as physical strength, working together (as a nation), as well as competition between "your lot and theirs". Lets also not forget at school, if you antagonised the athletes, you got your arse kicked. We are socialised into those pecking orders at school. In terms of physical prowess and social association, particularly among males which has a competitive hierarchy at school, those who do not participate are the natural target for bullies. And it does not take a lot for misunderstanding (or lack of understanding of those people) as an adult to stimulate the same response.

ur arrogant and whiny.

How lovely and coherent of you. Perchance, could you explain why? And the word "ur" is spelt "you're". Unless you're accessing Apolyton from a nokia .

Look, dude. Even if you're right and there is anti-intellectualism (and yeah...sure there is), you are going to have to live with the world the way it is. You pvssy.

Well done for recognising the blindingly obvious in your first point. Your second? No. I do not accept that I should be bullied because of what I choose to do in my time, or with my life. I do not antagonise people, I am not arrogant to them, I try to be friendly. Sure I don't have the entire campus in love with me but I do not go around proclaiming my superiority directly or indirectly, nor do I rub my activities in peoples face. I do not accept that reading Dickens in the canteen is rubbing it in. Furthermore, I do not accept that I should change who I am for having a life of conformity that others find easy to agree with. I know exactly what I want to do with my life and am happy in that, and if part of that is wanting to change the world for the better, I consider that a positive attribute. You accuse me of being a pvssy, but I would speculate that it takes more mental chutzpah to go against the grain than along with it.

We have on this thread those intellectuals who are bitter and twisted, some who appear to me as being threatened by this issue being raised (who I would either say are trying to be politically correct or are anti-intellectuals themselves), that are resorting to personal attacks, speculations about their failings to avoid the argument and only succeed in appearing as patronising and some that are actually trying to say reasonable things but are being shouted down in the crossfire.

[TCO]

Originally posted by monkspider
This thread has shown a lot of pseudo-intellectual kids with an amusing lack of self-awareness.

moron.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


I'm a professional writer. Therefore, I am verbose.

Really? What do you do? And you agree with my point, no?

[TCO]

1. The ***** comment was tongue in cheek. And clearly apropos. Moron.

2. You ought to take another look at my second point. There is a difference in "accepting unfairness as right" and "learning to live as best as possible in an imprefect world.

3. You come across as just a little pompous. drop that. You're not THAT smart.

----------------

Listen to papa GP. He will help you. Don't immediately reject the trolls. Instead read between the trolls as if a zen priest had said them. And inebriated zen priest.

Seriously, laugh and joke a little. Give it a shot, Einstein.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by TCO


moron.

how so?

[TCO]

I got a couple assignments for you, if you are ready for the challenge.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by TCO
I got a couple assignments for you, if you are ready for the challenge.

Go for it.

[TCO]

Originally posted by monkspider


how so?

Actgually I really like you. You are funny. I had a reason for it. But forgot. It was a pretty subtle, tenous thing though.

[TCO]

Originally posted by monkspider


how so?

They are for Whaleboy! You are cool enough that you don't need them.

Wait, DL ALERT!!>!>!>???

[monkspider]

Originally posted by TCO


Actgually I really like you. You are funny. I had a reason for it. But forgot. It was a pretty subtle, tenous thing though.

No worries.

[monkspider]

I love you GP. You are the greatest thing to ever happen to anything.

[TCO]

DO ME BABY!

[monkspider]

Originally posted by TCO
DO ME BABY!

My boxers are already wet.

[Provost Harrison]

Break it up pervs

[TCO]

mini-mod will be hot on the trail...

[TCO]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Break it up pervs

you want to lose your virginity in a different way? okay,,,make a circle.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Did you took into consideration the fact that your "analyses" might also be wrong? You speak about how the ignorant masses should "get it", as if your message had universal truth in it, something that should be understood as true, rather than simply denied / ignored.

Obviously, this shows no arrogance from you, nosirree.

This is one point I do not get? Does anyone who make an analysis have to refrain from stating it given the possibility of it being incorrect? When eople who I would never term intelectuals make statements, most of the time they are made incomplete confidence of thier correctness. For example, Bush speaks in certainties, yet no one owuld consider him an arrogant person- if only becuase his certainties are at everyone's level.

Perhaps the people who considered something arrogant (since arrogance is measured by the beholder) consider that the person perhaps is correct, given that they may have access to information, or training in a method of analysis that one is lacking?