Espionage--worthless?

[PGM]

Originally posted by steven8r
You don't need a spy to Investigate a city, your Ambasador can do that job for you w/o the chance/expense of planting a Spy. I generally just rely on my Diplomats in the Embassies. They're much cheaper and don't cause resentment upon failure--they don't fail.

What do you mean? They can only investigate the capital, and that's only at the brief moment they're planted, right? Or is there another way of using the Ambassadors that I'm not aware of?

[Guynemer]

Go into the "espionage" screen (even without the Intelligence Agency SW), pick a civ you have an embassy with, and you can investigate a city. I think you can also steal a tech, but only for an exorberant amount of gold and very little chance of success...

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber


I have gotten Propoganda to work many times. The main reason to conduct a Propoganda mission is if you need a toe hold onto another continent, or to get an important luxury or resource (possible but only in limited circumstances)

There are severe restrictions to propoganda missions. The first (and most obvious) is that Democracies are immune to them. The second is that the sucess rate is largely dependent on the culture value of the target city (over 100 is unlikely and over 500 is next to impossible) Repeated attempts raise your odds slightly (just an observation, not based on statistical analysis) propoganda missions are most successful against isolated cities containing valuable real estate or resources from a Civ with vastly inferior culture (they should be in awe of your civ)

thanks for that, will try again next game

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by PGM


What do you mean? They can only investigate the capital, and that's only at the brief moment they're planted, right? Or is there another way of using the Ambassadors that I'm not aware of?

keep in mind that you can only investigate cities that you can see on the map. So if you don't explore well, you won't be able to tell what some cities are doing. especially important in wonder races.

[Capt Dizle]

Play some sid level folks and you will learn to appreciate tech theft.

[PGM]

Originally posted by guynemer

Go into the "espionage" screen (even without the Intelligence Agency SW), pick a civ you have an embassy with, and you can investigate a city. I think you can also steal a tech, but only for an exorberant amount of gold and very little chance of success...

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

keep in mind that you can only investigate cities that you can see on the map. So if you don't explore well, you won't be able to tell what some cities are doing. especially important in wonder races.

Thank you. I can't believe I didn't know this after playing so many games. Boy is my face red...

[Drachen]

Originally posted by steven8r

I generally just rely on my Diplomats in the Embassies. They're much cheaper and don't cause resentment upon failure--they don't fail.

Steven

Are you sure Diplomats don't fail or cause resentment if the mission is "safely" done? Does anyone know the odds of success if they're not 100%?

Also, has anyone gotten a MGL from an ancient cavalry unit victory?

[Tall Stranger]

Originally posted by Drachen
Are you sure Diplomats don't fail or cause resentment if the mission is "safely" done? Does anyone know the odds of success if they're not 100%?

You always have a 100% success rate when you investigate a city at peacetime via diplomats. I don't think investigating a city increases resentment, but then I usually am doing this right before a war and so my relationship with the other civ is usually pretty lousy anyway.

Also, has anyone gotten a MGL from an ancient cavalry unit victory?

Yes, I got one in a previous game. (It was actually my first battle with an elite AC! Made a nice army!)

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Tall Stranger


You always have a 100% success rate when you investigate a city at peacetime via diplomats. I don't think investigating a city increases resentment, but then I usually am doing this right before a war and so my relationship with the other civ is usually pretty lousy anyway.



Yes, I got one in a previous game. (It was actually my first battle with an elite AC! Made a nice army!)

MGL from AC sounds great and will be perfect for my current game. Thanks for the info.

As to the Diplomatic missions I was thinking more in terms of stealing tech "safely" and am interested in the odds and repercussions. The game’s at Sid so stealing tech is pretty much a necessity.

[lethe]

I'm not playing on Sid, so stealing tech for me is mostly to cause them to declare war. My rep is usually lousy without me declaring war right and left. If I happen to actually get a tech out of the deal it's a huge bonus.

Also the cost of stealing tech might initially seem high, but in the late industrial it's definitely cheaper than buying the tech for pure cash.

[Alex]

I miss how you could frame other nations (er, factions) for your own espionage actions in SMAC...

[Drachen]

Originally posted by lethe
I'm not playing on Sid, so stealing tech for me is mostly to cause them to declare war. My rep is usually lousy without me declaring war right and left. If I happen to actually get a tech out of the deal it's a huge bonus.

I usually try to protect my reputation so that I have the option to buy critical resources etc. on credit. That’s why I’m concerned with the repercussions associated with a blown diplomatic mission. I know that getting caught stealing tech doesn’t always lead to a declaration of war because I got caught once and it didn’t even change the AI’s attitude in the diplomacy screen. That’s about all I know about it though, so any input will be appreciated and the poster will be praised with lavish abandon by all the citizens of my fledgling nation.

[Drachen]

Blown diplomatic missions to steal tech safely can take an AI from polite to annoyed.

[gunkulator]

If you have enough money to steal a tech, buy tanks with it and go grab a couple cities. Sue for peace 5 turns later and get your tech that way.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by gunkulator
If you have enough money to steal a tech, buy tanks with it and go grab a couple cities. Sue for peace 5 turns later and get your tech that way.

The games that have been posted so far suggest that the “Beat the Tech out of them” approach doesn't work as well at Sid as it does at lower levels. Vmxa1 posted an excellent game in which he won the battles, expanded his empire, and extorted tech for peace but still fell far behind in the tech race and eventually lost due to low culture. In Jimmy trick’s and probably Minstrel’s game tech stealing helped them maintain tech parity. I don’t know if tech stealing is “The Answer” but in my present game I’m about to hit Industrial and the last tech I researched was literature. The Inca are in the lead, have Nationalism, and are probably somewhere up that side of the tech tree. I’ll be in a position to steal another tech in a turn or two. With a little luck I’ll be able to trade my way to parity and then we’ll see.

[gunkulator]

Sid-level! Yikes! Don't think I'll ever try it because I'm no fan of extensive micromanagement. Emporer is as high as I go.

So perhaps the answer to the thread's question is: Espionage starts to become useful at the god-like levels.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by gunkulator
Sid-level! Yikes! Don't think I'll ever try it because I'm no fan of extensive micromanagement. Emporer is as high as I go.

So perhaps the answer to the thread's question is: Espionage starts to become useful at the god-like levels.

I've never been a big fan of Espionage but I'm learning about it because I have to. Just to add a bit to the data, my small sample seems to suggest that tech stealing succeeds about 80% of the time. Now that I know a bit more about it's uses I doubt that I'll ignore it when I leave the icy peaks of Sid for Emperor's rolling hills.

[vmxa1]

It seems that tech stealing is much easier and cheaper before the IA is built. Once you have a spy in place it seems harder and more expensive to get a tech.

This is just a feeling, based on only my limited use of stealing, so it may not stand up to a serious test.

I would say it is a very useful way to go at Sid. I may have fared much better if I had used it sooner, but I still would have had big problems with the culture.

At Emperor and Demi you can get back in the tech race sooner, so stealing tech is not critical. The cost factor makes it less of an issue. It is twice as expensive (to research) at Sid as it is at Emperor and 50% more than Deity.

So I would subscribe to the theory that espionage is more useful at the highest levles.

[Ecliptik]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Go into the "espionage" screen (even without the Intelligence Agency SW), pick a civ you have an embassy with, and you can investigate a city. I think you can also steal a tech, but only for an exorberant amount of gold and very little chance of success...

i have managed a couple of times to steal tech w/ an ambassador and its not actually that bad the problem is you can only steal 1 or 2 techs from them @ a time and it IS expensive

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
It seems that tech stealing is much easier and cheaper before the IA is built. Once you have a spy in place it seems harder and more expensive to get a tech.

If this is right then it’s wrong. It doesn’t seem fair that you would obtain the espionage tech, build a small wonder, and take the risk/expense of placing a spy only to have the result be that an ancient espionage technique becomes less likely to succeed.

[Ecliptik]

Originally posted by Tall Stranger


You always have a 100% success rate when you investigate a city at peacetime via diplomats. I don't think investigating a city increases resentment, but then I usually am doing this right before a war and so my relationship with the other civ is usually pretty lousy anyway.



Yes, I got one in a previous game. (It was actually my first battle with an elite AC! Made a nice army!)

whats an MGL
whats an ancient calvalry and (not in this quote)
whats sid level

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Ecliptik


whats an MGL
whats an ancient calvalry and (not in this quote)
whats sid level

All of these are new items found in the conquests expansion to Civilization III.

Great leaders are now divided into two varieties...
1. MGL = Military Great Leader.
2. SGL = Scientific Great Leader.

Ancient Cavalry are units generated from a wonder called the Statue of Zeus available after you get Mathematics if you have Ivory.

Sid level is a step above Deity and might be described as the equivalent of willfully scooping out chunks of your flesh with a dull rusty implement.

[dainbramage20]

Its useful to an extent. One of the things I would like to see in Civ4 is the Diplomat not have this ability

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen


If this is right then it’s wrong. It doesn’t seem fair that you would obtain the espionage tech, build a small wonder, and take the risk/expense of placing a spy only to have the result be that an ancient espionage technique becomes less likely to succeed.

I think you are correct, this should not be how it works (if it in fact does work that way).

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen

Sid level is a step above Deity and might be described as the equivalent of willfully scooping out chunks of your flesh with a dull rusty implement.

Not quite that bad. More like a mild beating. Painful, but you recover soon.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1


Not quite that bad. More like a mild beating. Painful, but you recover soon.

Spoken like a true Sidhartha.

[Daz]

I rarely use them. As most of the others..... Theres your answer.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
It seems that tech stealing is much easier and cheaper before the IA is built. Once you have a spy in place it seems harder and more expensive to get a tech.

This is just a feeling, based on only my limited use of stealing, so it may not stand up to a serious test.

I had a chance to check this out and my impression using a Communist spy was just the opposite of your impression Vmxa1. I was able to plant the spy in a nation I was at war with and afterwards tech theft, sabotage, etc seemed much more successful than my diplomatic thieveries. This makes sense since the spies are vets and the diplomats are regulars. Small sample size I admit but that was my impression.

[Puma]

I wish there was more info on the factors affecting espionage missions.
Could it be that communist spies have a higher success rate than spies in other government types? Could it also be that espionage missions become less likely to succeeed if the target civ also has its own intelligency agency?
To answer the question, I do build the IA as soon as possible after getting espionage - sometimes I even prebuild it - simply because I think it makes it possible to know when someone is trying to put a spy in your capital. Prior to that, I have never seen the advisor tell me that Gonzo from across the border tried to put a spy in my nation. I also use it when trying to start a war, by first kicking the target's spy off my nation; and if that fails (possibly because there was no foreign spy in the first place) then I still tend to get my war anyway - without declaring it myself. I usually combine that with stealing battle plans to find where the enemy transports/subs are, how many defenders are on each enemy border city and where to concentrate my attacks and defenses. I never risked tech stealing (I dont normally play above emperor) nor throwing the shoe into their production machine. I also learned to forget propaganda as it usually only works on off the beaten path towns which I could not afford to defend in a timely and cost effective manner. Maybe this is something for galapago style maps - with single city islands. The way I normally look at it, one more measly town is only going add to my corruption due to city count. If I want a luxury, I'd rather bring a load units to that town.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen


I had a chance to check this out and my impression using a Communist spy was just the opposite of your impression Vmxa1. I was able to plant the spy in a nation I was at war with and afterwards tech theft, sabotage, etc seemed much more successful than my diplomatic thieveries. This makes sense since the spies are vets and the diplomats are regulars. Small sample size I admit but that was my impression.

The small amount of exposure I have had at doing is the reason I used the term seems.

Using spies the figures were much higher for me, but these were in different times as PTW vs C3C.