After action report "The Great Bobian War"

[Master Zen]

Just to shed some light on the GoW-GS relationship before the war (btw, any interpretations on GS's position are just that, my interpretations, hopefully GS can also chip in some info on this)


Our biggest fear when attempting to take on RP was the wildcard: GS. We knew that the GS army wasn't big, it was enormous. And what we feared most was the galleys + GL combination which made the possibility of them invading our east practically a war-loser for us. I honestly think there was a very safe chance of GoW suffereing a humiliating defeat had GS attempted a landing around Port Isolation during the first turns when practically our entire army was down south and we had neglibible reserves in the north.

Thus, our objective was that GS remain neutral at all costs, or that if it should intervene, do it on the GoW-ND side. However there were MANY misgivings on our side as to how beneficial this would be in the long run. Would GS take the oportunity to have a foothold on GoW and then launch a massive assault on the continent? Particulary paranoid was ND which didn't want any GS presence at all, we perhaps might have been able to convince them to limit their presence to about 2-3 cities.

GoW and GS held various chats before the war, where our intentions and our targets were slowly revealed. Our first objective was to "crack" their reclusiveness, trading for maps and luxes. Our next objective was to try and gauge their opinions regarding a war on Bob. At the moment I did not feel prudent to reveal who the target was but did make it clear that GoW was taking step necessary to ensure that we were not the ones to be gangbanged, that left only the GoW/ND vs RP and GoW/RP vs ND possibilites. Key to this was the signing of the NAP which led to the -in retrospect erroneous- sense of security that neither of us would get betrayed.

Finally we decided to tell GS precisely of our plans and held one final chat with ND present which was determined to negotiate on the amount and location of land given. Like I mentioned previously, our idea was to concede about 3 cities at the most in exchange for GS's minor collaboration in our war effort. I really felt a bit uneasy at the last chat even as ND and us were discussing in private that it was too much what we were offering, and even that was to little to GS especially compared to what RP was about to offer soon after once they figured that the GoW stack was indeed heading towards Toledo and not towards an eastern backstab of ND through Mavdad (what we had hinted at RP that was going to be our plan in our dealings with them, but that is another story: "How We Kept RP Guessing").

In the end, GoW's failure to keep GS out of Bob was due to simply not being able to offer to GS what RP could, but of course this ignores RP's part in it: we also believed that RP and GS pratically hated each other and that RP would likely seek help from Lego. By seeking help from GS instead, RP did what best it could to stop us. Good job, it made it very close .

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Aeson
If two teams split Bob that left GS with running about 66% of what either of the Bob civs could run, and around 55% of what Lego could come up with. This is production (little less), commerce (little more), and also chances at resources. The tile counts (land+coast) were something like GS 300, ND+GoW 900, Lego 600 (minus whatever they gave to Vox). GS land was the highest coast to land ratio, very few hills for production, least suited for 2 cores, and also the lowest ratio of river tiles.

Any idea what the tile ratio is now?

[Aeson]

I have no idea how the war turned out GF. Last I saw was the turn when GoW put a stack next to Toledo on turn 1 or 2 of the war IIRC.

[Master Zen]

Back on the issue of invasion. A GS invasion of GoW continued to be an issue with us until about the middle part of the war where we were finally able to muster enough troops to have both a strike force in the south and a reserve force in the north (perhaps my only contribution to the war effort on GoW's side was constantly pestering Aggie on our northern defenses and how we were even vulnerable to a surprise invasion just a few tiles off of Imperial City against sea-going GS galleys).

Two other tactics were used by GoW to avoid this. The first was the threat of ultimate defeat to GS as said in the infamous "Manifesto" thread (though conversely such a strongly worded document was also a glaring revelation of weakness at our core, I'm surprised GS never picked up on that, it could well have been interpreted as an admission of fighting a war we could not win). The other was seeking support from Lego.

It didn't take a fool to realize that GS's ambitions were totally opposite that of Lego's, and that a GS presence on Bob would likely lead to another war in the future which, had GS emerged victorious, would likely have left them in an unbeatable position to win this game. We urged to Lego to help us in some way or another. With almost a purely defensive army, Lego was unable to offer military assistance at first so our urge was to send GS strongly worded threats against going too far on Bob. We hoped that at the very least this would convince GS to limit their war to a battle for RP's survival and not a war of conquest on Bob. I'm not sure how much this worked, but it was at least an attempt.

When did GoW think we were saved from defeat? Well, I'd say the turning point was the first battle in the south which resulted in the destruction of a sizeable GS stack (I like to call this the "Battle of Alamo East" since it was on the hills east of this city). We knew the war was far from over but that at least it was not "loseable" and that maybe we had a long shot at winning completely.

This was also the time where our Golden Age + Leo's Workshop combination was getting us Riders by the dozen. By the time GS DID in fact invade the north, we were in no worry: it actually helped us as those troops could be better used in the south for GS and there was no chance they could even take one city. GoW alone by then had more Riders than GS in our east, if you add Lego's troops which soon arrived in theater, well, you get the picture.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Aeson
I have no idea how the war turned out GF. Last I saw was the turn when GoW put a stack next to Toledo on turn 1 or 2 of the war IIRC.

Oh right then, Vox was able to backstab Lego and took about 85% of Legoland. ND and GoW wiped out Roleplay but Lego annexed GoW's homeland and took over ND.

Basically, ND, GoW, and GS are all scrunched on Estonia huddled for warmth.

[Master Zen]

Ok, now for the last part, the shady double dealings that went on during this conflict, off the top of my head there were two attempts at changing the tide of the war by major backstabs right in the middle.

Disclaimer: these dealings were done under the face of desperation and the very real threat of losing the war, so if they sound crazy and even hilarious don't be surprised

The first was our attempt to get RP to backstab GS at the start of the war. This had happened after the takeover of all but eastern Spain but was when the war appeared at ending in a stalemate, with GoW and ND's GA wasted and GS's presence growing stronger. We figured that perhaps by some miracle RP was willing to jump on GS and we'd let them maintain a presence on Bob, in fact, a significant one: we were conceding everything south of the mountain range and south of the river around of New Madrid (or something like that). It is not an insignificant chunck (much larger and much better land than either Vox's or the current RP land). Of course, RP refused (no surprise here) but it was at least an attempt.

The second was GS's attempt at getting us to backstab ND during the latter part of the war. Perhaps using the northing invasion as "leverage" the idea was to relocate RP, backstab ND with GS getting a very very large chunk of southern Bob. Despite GoW playing along up until the very end (at the "Battle of Pamplona Forest"), it was obvious from the start that this was not in the interests of GoW for two reasons. The first was it was an uneasy thought at having a large GS presence directly south to us (we percieved that GS's attitude had heavily changed by then but who knew what their attitude would be later on).

The second was that the military balance by then had tilted tremendously on the continent. While discussing the situation back in those days, I calculated that the GoW-ND-Lego alliance had over 70 mobile units (Rider/Ansar/Knight) alone whereas the GS-RP alliance had around 30. It was now only a question of seeing when GS would goof, I thought that it would be in an attempt to assault Yellowknife or Alamo (both of which were massively defended). In fact, during a good chuck of that time we were waiting on the assualt on Alamo to wait for our own counterattack against Pamplona (we were very uneasy at attacking Pamplona with the bulk of GS's knights right next to Alamo). When GS assembled their stack on the forest, it was our chance, we took it, and it paid off. And that was pretty much the end.


Well, that's all that I can think of at the moment. I would like very much to see GS's points of view on some of these matters. I am also willing to explain in depth more of these incidents if anyone wants.

[notyoueither]

Just one question, how did assisting ND in the destruction of RP aid GoW's chances at winning?

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Just one question, how did assisting ND in the destruction of RP aid GoW's chances at winning?

What? You mean we were supposed to gain something from the war?

Interesting idea. We should look into this.

[Hot_Enamel]

A 2 civ Bob gives one of those 2 civs a better chance than winning than sharing Bob with 3 civs.

One civ had to go.

RP was "difficult" to deal with. ND was a good ally. (Trading & Military)
When we went looking for a early partner, RP pulled the "negotiating from a position of power" trick... better known as the "scouting warrior incident", which sent our diplomatic relations into a downspin.

When choosing a Civ to share Bob, we needed someone more trustworthy than RP.

Basically, RP's approach of not having long term allies or enemies, only short term ones was their undoing.


So...Geographically, RP should of our ally against ND.
But politically, ND was far better to deal with, and someone we trusted.


**Edit**
Disclaimer: We are not saying that RP is untrustworthy. Just that their history gave GoW the perception that ND would make a better ally.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Just one question, how did assisting ND in the destruction of RP aid GoW's chances at winning?

I think there's one aspect of this war that everyone outside of GoW (and maybe only ND) has overlooked. But THAT's something I am not planning to disclose until this game is over.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
A 2 civ Bob gives one of those 2 civs a better chance than winning than sharing Bob with 3 civs.

One civ had to go.

RP was "difficult" to deal with. ND was a good ally. (Trading & Military)
When we went looking for a early partner, RP pulled the "negotiating from a position of power" trick... better known as the "scouting warrior incident", which sent our diplomatic relations into a downspin.

When choosing a Civ to share Bob, we needed someone more trustworthy than RP.

Basically, RP's approach of not having long term allies or enemies, only short term ones was their undoing.


So...Geographically, RP should of our ally against ND.
But politically, ND was far better to deal with, and someone we trusted.


**Edit**
Disclaimer: We are not saying that RP is untrustworthy. Just that their history gave GoW the perception that ND would make a better ally.

Heh... to be honest, it wasn't that we had a policy of not HAVING long-term allies, it was that Glory of War was at the BOTTOM of our list of long-term allies we wanted.

The fact that that became more and more apparent to GoW over time was undoubtedly a contributing factor to what eventually took place.

Now, my input on this is spotty, since I was around up to about the point we made actual contact with Legoland and then I was gone until the start of this war.... but what I will say from our internal discussions back before Lego contact in ancient history was that our discussions lead to the priority for long term allies being roughly the following:

Legoland
Lux Invicta
Vox Controli/Neu Demogyptica/Gathering Storm
Glory of War

If any mistake was made, it was our choice of who we wanted as long-term allies. All I can say, in retrospect, is that we chose very very very poorly. To begin with, Lux Invicta imploded on us before we could really help them. Our relations with Legoland obviously left something to be desired at some point after I'd left RP Team... since Legoland was the one we were hoping would become our chief strategic ally for the long-term of the game, my personal assessment is that that REALLY hurt. With Neu Demogypica obviously bent on our destruction and Gathering Storm mad at us over I still don't entirely understand what, the situation wasn't exactly rosy when I came back to the team a few months ago and asked the obligatory "so, how are things going around here?" We had resorted to courting the team we least wanted as an ally and which we'd had a stormy relationship with the entire game, Glory of War.

The fact that we were bailed out by an alliance with Gathering Storm was something that was not all THAT easy. In retrospect, it may seem obvious (and I certainly thought it was!), but MUCH of RP Team was staunchly against giving up any drop of Spanish lands or other favors to avoid the fate that was coming. If others wished to help us for their own reasons, so be it, but a number of the members of our team argued that our role-play element necessitated that we should stand on our own two feat and accept the fate coming to us... it was preferable that way to selling ourselves out and living the rest of the game with another power controlling part of our lands.

I had started working on my team to agree to offer some MAJOR things to Gathering Storm (which the team was very against offering, on the whole) before even the first stroke of war from ND and GoW fell (after it became apparent, even though GoW never said so, that they were coming for *us*, not ND). By the time they had officially declared war, Togas had given me the go ahead to negotiate an alliance (if it could be done) with GS and given me a whole bunch of leeway on what I could give in return.

I remember signing on to the MAST chatroom and finding OPD in there. I literally floored the guy with what we were offering GS in return for aid.

NYE and I spent a good deal of time after that negotiating the actual treaty. I recall that some members of GS were suspicious of RP's intentions in signing the treaty becuase of just how generous we were being... it didn't seem consistent with our pride. As for RP, some of our members were suspicious of GS, wondering what would really happen once the war was over, victory or defeat, and GS was left in a strong position compared to us and could potentially dictate terms of all sorts of things to us.

As for exactly what GS agreed to give to RP team and exactly what parts of Bob or other things we agree to pay in return, I'm not willing to discuss that yet. Nor am I willing to discuss in full what our plans for the future of Bob and the world were at the time or how they changed over time. If I have my way, those things will remain classified for a very long time, ideally until the game is over. I assume that GoW, ND, Legoland, and Vox are remaining silent about the same issues for the same reasons. The game isn't over yet and relations with the other powers are still important, even for down-and-out teams like Vox and RP.

As for once we HAD an alliance with GS, the main issue was attempting to conceal its existence until GoW and ND could see the first GS units facing them in battle and then trying (if we could) to downplay the EXTENT of our willingness to cooperate.

I recall being rather upset with a PM sent by Shiber to ND at that time basically (though not literally) spilling the beans on just what GS was intentening to do and why - with the purpose of encouraging ND to take the cities we had gifted to GS. My understanding is that GS felt uncomfortable deceiving ND and wanted the WW boost. I'd just have preferred we'd left worrying over getting GS involved in the war, left them wondering whether GS was already fully committed to RP's defense, and let them give GS the WW boost a few turns later if ND could AT ALL be convinced not to strike immediately. But that's water under the bridge.

The thing that was, by far, the most decisive, was the position of Legoland. RP Team had hoped at the war's outset that we could potentially convince both Legoland and Gathering Storm to help us, as much to prevent the other guy from being the only one to help us and thus get all of the spoils if we actually survived. As it turned out, Legoland basically refused to help and GS was eager to help. The decision had been made for us... the only civ we could turn to was GS and thus we'd offer GS everything rather than offering to both GS and Lego, trying to preserve that balance.

Several times during the war we approached Legoland again in an attempt to re-establish that balance and every time we were refused. It didn't take very long before much of RP Team became convinced of what was likely going on and why Legoland was being so reticent. Finally, even I'd had enough of what we knew was really going on near the end of the war and just started to be blunt with Legoland just so I didn't have to keep getting what I knew was the run-around.

I'm not go into any details on any of that or other discussions and negotiations, however. Much of what I was doing was just feeling some people out to get information from how they reacted to things, some of it genuine offers RP Team was fully prepaired to back up on the off chance someone actually agreed, much of it both.

I certainly did everything in my very limited power in negotiations with several teams to turn around what we could clearly see was a downhill situation for the team. It became quite apparent that I was really just wasting my time in terms of actually accomplishing a turn-around in the diplomatic situation, but I continued some activities just for the purpose of mining for information. Eventually, I got tired of even doing that and I must admit my activity level has been sporatic on RP ever since.

I very much look forward to the game being over and all of the teams being fully honest about what was actually going on. I know, on behalf of RP Team, I'm certainly not willing to do that yet. Not for as long as RP Team survives and relations with multiple powers we could help and could receive payment from exists, that is.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Arnelos
... our discussions lead to the priority for long term allies being roughly the following:

Legoland
Lux Invicta
Vox Controli/Neu Demogyptica/Gathering Storm
Glory of War

It kinda makes you think what would of happened had RP rated GoW a little higher...or treated us a little better.

Before the "exploring warrior" incident, RP was very high on GoW's list of potential allies. Our geography demanded it.

Originally posted by Arnelos

I certainly did everything in my very limited power in negotiations with several teams to turn around what we could clearly see was a downhill situation for the team. It became quite apparent that I was really just wasting my time in terms of actually accomplishing a turn-around in the diplomatic situation, but I continued some activities just for the purpose of mining for information. Eventually, I got tired of even doing that and I must admit my activity level has been sporatic on RP ever since.

I am not sure that RP made any effort for peace with GoW. As you can read from the above posts, GoW was very concerned about GS's involvement. (Especially very early in the war when our east coast was undefended).

I am sure we would of listened to any fair offer.
We wanted RP eliminated of course, but after the hurtfull backstab from GS, they quickly become enemy #1

{Hurtfull Backstab = The Breaking of our NAP from the GoW perspective}

Originally posted by Arnelos
I very much look forward to the game being over and all of the teams being fully honest about what was actually going on. I know, on behalf of RP Team, I'm certainly not willing to do that yet. Not for as long as RP Team survives and relations with multiple powers we could help and could receive payment from exists, that is.

Ditto from me

[Aggie]

This is great info and I thank all for participating.

Now some info from me. I came back to Gow just when the planning for the war was begining. We had already selected a target so I had little input on that and can't say much about why RP. But I'll talk about are strategy for the war.

Our initial strategy was to invade RP through the Toledo area then take New Madrid. After that we would push west and join ND for the final attack on Pamploma.

Once it became clear that GS would intervene we scrapped this plan. Then we made what I think was a key mistake. We hesitated and tried to negotiate a way out with GS. This cost us time and delayed our push south. Once we knew war was inevitable we decided we'd act based on the following ideas.

1. We'd move toward Toledo/New Madrid.
2 If they were or seemed to be well defended we'd bypass them and do 1 of 2 things.
a) move toward Pamploma
b) move toward the undefended(we hoped and believed likely) southern cities.

The turn we cleared Toledo we saw 6 Gs knights and believd that the best use of our forces would be to cut the flow of GS forces into the pamploma area. For the record we belived that GS had 15/20 offensive units that would be soon coming to the area. With that kind of force we couldn't hope to hold Pamploma even if we did take it and our weakened forces would be sitting ducks. So we decided that after using the roads to move southward we'd cut them. This necessitated leaving a few riders exposed. But where possible we left them on hills hoping to start are GA.

My personal hope was that we could steal a march on our opponents and steal the fortress citiy of "The Alamo", nee Salamanca. I must here give credit to Ghengis. It was he who persuaded us to move to the desert tile instead of the hill tile ne of it. This saved us a turn on movement and enabled the attack on all the southern cities the same turn.

I'll continue the story or others can later, right now I must go, but perhaps will add pictures later.

Aggie

[Arrian]

I understand GoW's actions. I understand ND's actions. The one that continues to puzzle me is Lego.

One would think they would be interested in keeping a balance of power such that no other team quite reaches their level of power. Therefore, it seemed logical to me that they would build up their strength, wait for one side or another to start making progress in the Bobian war, and then intervene on the opposing (losing) side, to balance things out again. So their alliance with GoW shocked me. GoW and ND were CLEARLY winning, once GoW flanked us and gutted southern Espana. Even before that, ND was making good progress in the West.

Having said that, the picture for Lego remains rosy as all hell. The war, while it wasn't necessarily as bloody for ND/GoW as we in GS had hoped, did take a while. All those turns, Lego was building merrily away. Now, with RP & GS off Bob, ND and GoW have finally been able to start resettling the south and organizing their empires to take advantage of that captured land. Too late, perhaps, to catch Lego?

We shall see.

-Arrian

[Donegeal]

I think that Lego sided with us to insure that it was bloody for GS. When war broke out, GS was clearly the leader but Lego had far more potential. So the bloodier the war was (on all sides) the better for lego. Also, if GS had established a foot hold on Bob, they could have built up MASSIVE amounts of troops and gone for a Domination victory. So, I belive that Lego sided with us because they did not want to see a GS presense on Bob (resulting in the "Too late, perhaps, to catch Lego?" hope on their part).

[Arrian]

That would make a certain amount of sense, but if that was the thinking, I feel it's flawed. See, a GS presence on Bob wasn't enough to really provide us with much benifit. We needed a good chunk of land, and we needed a palace/FP move, which essentially meant a leader. We're not militaristic. The one leader we got in the Voxian war was an astounding stroke of luck, and unlikely to be repeated. Even if we took the land, got the leader and moved the palace, we'd still need to hold it and develop it (terrain improvements, new cities, etc) - not an easy task, since if those things had come to pass, I'd expect all teams aside from RP to unite against us to prevent us from running away with the game. Trying to build up a second core while under fire would have been very hard.

Too many things had to go our way for there to be a realistic shot of GS becoming a superpower. Our lead at the start of the Bobian war was a momentary thing, resulting from our GA, which was by then done. The other contenders hadn't had theirs yet, and had larger empires.

On the other hand, GoW & ND had a much more realistic chance of acheiving superpower status via conquest of RP & a redistribution of the continent. A FP/Palace move down south for GoW was possible from a leader, and since GoW is militaristic and a big war was brewing, that seemed like a reasonable possibility.

ND had an even better chance of building up the south, even before they got their leader, because with a rushed courthouse, good development and WLTKD, a FP build wouldn't take that long.

In short, I think people greatly overestimated GS's chances. We always viewed our foray onto Bob as a longshot taken out of necessity. I'm not surprised at the outcome, though I do wish we had done several things differently which may have mitigated our defeat, or even possibly created a stalemate (unlikely, though, given GoW's completion of Leos).

-Arrian

[GhengisFarb™]

The way I see it, what hurt GS is the fact that were so secretive. Your strategy and assement is sound with your information. The other teams didn't have it though. You kept all the rest of us in the dark and we had to guess how much land you had and what your capibilites were.

They were obviously more than enough to win the game because you wouldn't let us know about them. You obviously had more production than any of us could ever dream of having because you were cranking out Wonders like Workers.

You did such a good job of keeping us in the dark and puffing yourselves up that you became one of the number one threats in most of the other team's strategy sessions.

Later when the info came out you weren't near as scary as we had thought, but by then the die was cast.

[Panzer32]

Ghengis, have you looked for that 4 city invasion turn plan yet?

[GhengisFarb™]

Uh, I forgot.

[Cort Haus]

The real victors of the war, of course, didn't lose a single hitpoint.

[Darekill]

I think War is not necesaryli a good way to win a great human DG scenario.
Something that enlightens me, because the whole game suports warlike gamestyle.
Still there is a good chance to win peacefully.

[Arrian]

They were obviously more than enough to win the game because you wouldn't let us know about them. You obviously had more production than any of us could ever dream of having because you were cranking out Wonders like Workers.

You created this image of our power in your mind. Clearly, as we held on to our map for as long as we could TO HIDE OUR WEAKNESS, you had no conflicting information to go on. Our GA boost further obscured our weakness. I can see how it happened.

However, having said that, we WERE up-front about our needs. We layed out the tile-count thing for you guys. We told you, flat-out, that we had nowhere near enough land to compete in the late-game, and therefore wanted more territory. So, other than hanging on to our map, which saved us when Vox attacked, we were as open as one can be. It was probably a mistake not to trade our map immediately upon Vox's departure, though.

Cranking out wonders like workers? We lost the race to the Pyramids and settled for the Lighthouse. We built the Colossus (200 shields, perfect for a coastal nation such as ours). We rushed Sun Tzu with a leader - that had nothing to do with production. The Great Wall is hardly a key wonder. That about covers it, IIRC.

-Arrian

[vondrack]

I have been staying out of this discussion mostly for reasons mentioned by Arnelos (i.e. a lot of what would be most interesting to disclose is still classified, waiting for the game to be over).

But I feel that we (Lego) sort of owe an explanation to GS. At least from the we're-all-a-bunch-of-friends-anyway perspective.

So, I will give it a try... I just really hope I am not going to stirr things as bad as my posts of this kind tend to usually...

1) Believe it or not, when the war broke out, Lego did not consider siding with GoW/ND at first. Despite our less than stellar relations with RP, we reluctantly started discussing how to "reasonably" help RP (intra-team)... I mean, we did see them as one of our top rivals potential-wise, had poor relations & little trade with them (not blaming anyone, simply stating the facts here). Despite that, we understood 2 on 1, especially with those two being in their GA, was hopeless - and would end up in RP dead, which we did not like all that much (we did prefer a 3-civ Bob at that time). So, in the beginning, we were inclined to side with RP, albeit being less than happy about it (there was little to gain by helping them, but a rather fragile "balance of power" on Bob - with three civs, there would hardly be any "true" balance ever).

2) As someone else correctly mentioned earlier in this thread, we had almost no offensive forces of our own. Most of our troops were GA-sensitive mercs. Not sure if I recall that correctly, but I believe we had 6 knights at most, maybe even less. Plus, we did not have a navy large enough to quickly shuffle forces across the sea (2-3 galleys, I believe, less than optimally deployed). So, it was not really about helping RP militarily - but we did consider gold and techs. However, this has never materialized because of later events.

3) I believe two treaties had a major impact on how things later developed. The first was never signed - it was kind of a mutual protection pact discussed between us and RP. The negotiations failed, IIRC, because of Lego was not willing to exchange world maps as part of the treaty (not that we would have been all that eager to sign the pact in the first place... but the map thing buried it for us). This was very, very long ago.

Then, (much) later on (but still waaaay before the war), we signed a treaty with ND as a result of a surprise visit of their scout appearing 2 tiles deep in Southern Legos. We wanted this scout gone at almost all costs (again, it was about the map of our interior, which was and still is considered top secret), so we offered a fine deal to see him leave peacefully - a war was the very last thing we needed at that time. To our delight, ND not only agreed, but proposed a treaty guaranteeing both parties would never land their unit on "the other" landmass. If this was already planning for the war, then it was smart of ND - we had no idea what exactly and if anything was going to happen on Bob, but it was clear ND did not want us to become involved, in any case. Well, we did not want to become involved anyway... so we happily signed it.

4) When the war broke out, things got messy. Like a bolt out of blue, we're offered some western RP cities. Wording of our treaty with ND aside, it was very clear we'd have broken at least its spirit - entering the war against GoW/ND on RP's side. We saw that as a pretty bad deal - we would have gained two enemies, while hardly gaining an ally... (no offense meant - but as stated before, there was little love/trust between us and RP), while being unable to make any difference in the short run. And in the long run... even if the war was won or not lost in the end, we had no interest in cities on Bob (unlike GS). So, we refused the cities, honouring the treaty with ND and "staying out of trouble" (or so it seemed at that moment).

One thing we did not know was that RP offered their eastern cities to GS (or was that offer made only after we refused to get involved in this way?). Had we known that, we might have decided differently, hoping GoW & ND might have called their attack off completely, seeing RP backed by two strong teams... dunno. But we somehow assumed GS would help RP in the same way we were thinking of - gold, techs, luxes. That was rather foolish on our part, I admit. We should have seen that GS got their golden chance to expand onto Bob.

5) Once GS accepted RP's cities, the situation changed dramatically (from our PoV). It was no longer about RP being driven off Bob or not. It became about GS getting a solid foothold on Bob or not.

We were aware (not sure if fully) how much superior GS's economy was. And guessed how much superior their military was. And we were fully aware of the GoW and ND economy strength (their GA output figures were hardly matching our non-GA output). We saw it as very likely GS/RP would eventually overwhelm GoW/ND. If it was to happen in this war or in a later war... that was not important. From our PoV it was like this:

a) GS "lands" casualty-free on Bob
b) GS & RP fight GoW & ND, not losing the war
c) sooner or later, GS musters an overwhelming force and takes (most of) Bob, leaving us to, ummm, "happily build our asses off" on Legos, not having to care...

So... looking at it from this perspective, we saw we'd have to help GoW/ND sooner or later, unless we were content to lose the game. Well, we decided it would be better to do that sooner.

6) At that moment (1 or 2 turns into the war), we made our crucial decision and answered an urgent call for help from GoW (which seemed to be wavering at that time). After being briefed on the GoW/ND plans, we decided we'd rather put up with a suboptimal 2-civ GS-free Bob setup (a 3-civ GS-free setup would've been preferred, but did not seem achievable) than let GS prepare a fine beachhead for a later invasion and conquering of Bob (well, yes, we might have been overestimating GS, but their victory over Vox was so impressive that we did not really think we were "panicking"... it seemed inevitable, especially considering how elite players are believed to win their SP games - mostly by domination; plus - if that little modest land GS got for starters allowed them to race ahead of everybody else, what was to be expected from them with another chunk of the same size on Bob...?).

Letting GoW and ND split Bob between themselves was simply "less unacceptable" in the long-term perspective. PLUS, and this was very important at least for me - it seemed we could have achieved this goal actively by getting involved (even if to a pretty limited extent only), rather than just sitting on the sidelines, hoping others would duke it out themselves.

7) So it was decided that we would ally with GoW and ND against GS. And it was decided that we'd commit as much as we were able to, as fast as we were able to. Legoland Expeditionary Forces (LEF) set sail on the very turn following our crucial negotiations with GoW/ND. They were feeble to ridiculous at that time - but it was all we were able to contribute with. We arranged a joint tech research, we changed our build schedules, slipping in much more military... and hoped we'd not arrive too late...

At this moment, I would like to note that we did not want to get involved in the destruction of RP, at least not directly (read below). We made this very clear to GoW/ND, agreeing to commit our own troops only to the defense of their homeland territories. I fully acknowledge, though, that pretending Lego "did not enter the war against RP" would be ridiculous. Yes, we helped to free GoW/ND's hands. However, from our PoV, it was an inevitable side-effect of our decision to oppose the GS expansion onto Bob.

From the very beginning, we put a lot of emphasis on keeping our alliance secret - it was obvious that as long as GS were planning for one opponent less, we had the element of surprise on our side. As RP kept calling for help (I honestly say that the last chat with Arnelos really hurt - from the personal PoV... as I had to tell him things I knew were very cruel... sorry for that, Arnelos), it was impossible to maintain the "neutral stance cover" for too long. In the end, it was mostly about keeping our military presence on Bob secret.

8) And yes... at a certain moment, it became obvious that GoW/ND were clearly winning and RP/GS had very little to no hope of turning the tide (with no saltpeter). Our help was no longer really needed... I believe the cheap and fast gunpowder research we did for GoW/ND allowed them to raise quite a lot of extra riders & ansars... while still benefitting from the muskets (and generally, from knowing about the saltpeter deposits).
But we haven't considered a backstab or even withdrawal at any time, as... as... well, first, as we are not really heavy into backstabbing... and second, as we would pretty much lose all of the non-tangible, trust-related gains - remaining true to our alliance through the uncertain times till the victorious end was always considered a better (the only, in fact) option.

It might be we misjudged the balance of power and GS was much less of a threat than we believed, even with some extra territory on Bob... but that we shall never find out...

GS, RP - on a personal level: sorry for what happened. From another (individual) PBEM game of mine, I know how it feels to see one's meticulously crafted plans or a tidy, happily developing empire to collapse. Honestly, I have come close to believing that PBEM, and especially DGs with the insane amount of work contributed by their players, are simply not my cup of tea. Crushing the AI is somehow... more enjoyable, I would say. Crushing humans is not much fun, unless I'm able to consider them a true enemy (which I'm not). Crushing a friend or friends brings me little joy, knowing how much efforts must have been wasted for the defeated party... It's only slightly better than getting crushed, knowing how much efforts I wasted myself, actually...

Well, as others mentioned before... I am looking forward to the game being over, too.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arrian
However, having said that, we WERE up-front about our needs. We layed out the tile-count thing for you guys. We told you, flat-out, that we had nowhere near enough land to compete in the late-game, and therefore wanted more territory.

After the Roleplay fiasco we no longer believed that kind of rubbish, Roleplay used the same tactic only their tile counts and info was false. They kind of jaded us against you so to speak.

Originally posted by Arrian
Cranking out wonders like workers? We lost the race to the Pyramids and settled for the Lighthouse. We built the Colossus (200 shields, perfect for a coastal nation such as ours). We rushed Sun Tzu with a leader - that had nothing to do with production. The Great Wall is hardly a key wonder. That about covers it, IIRC.

We weren't there, all we saw was Wonder, end turn, Wonder, end turn, Wonder...............

If anything, I've learned from this that honesty and straight forwardness is a good policy in multi-team demogames. Roleplay tried to trick and manipulate us and it just drove ND and GoW together.

GoW and ND were pretty open about their positions and as confirmations happened it made each team more trustworthy in the eyes of the other.

Not that I'm saying Roleplay members are bad people, they tried a tactic to gain more that their share and once the tactic was found out it caused resentment in the other teams. They just weren't able to overcome that later.

[Master Zen]

I would just like to second vondrack's and other's assessments of GS. To be honest we thought it was a monster especially after their defeat of Vox and coming up with an army larger than any of us could hope for.

(oh and Trip didn't help much, gloating in the ISDG about how mighty and efficient GS was)

When we got GS's map I was amazed at just how efficient the city placement and tile improvement was. Given this, how could we NOT overestimate GS? And when we saw how many knights kept arriving on Bob, we knew we were up against the nightmare of all armies. It was not a reassuring thought.

[Arrian]

Good post, Vondrack. GS never had any doubt about Lego's motivations, and hold no personal grudges or any silliness like that. You're out to win, as everyone is, and you gotta do what you gotta do.

I *do* think you guys overestimated us, perhaps by a large margin. On the other hand, like I said before, I don't think that's going to matter. I think we delayed ND & GoW enough (for you to win). But since that's a long way off, obviously it's just guesswork.

Ghengis: Yeah, but did we complete wonders that really matter? Sun Tzu, maybe, but that's gotta be 3rd place among the big three (Sun Tzu, Sistine, Leos). The Lighthouse was key for us, being an island nation, but honestly who else (besides maybe Lego?) even wanted it? The Colossus anyone could have built (though I'm very pleased we got it, it's one of my personal favorites). And the GW is about to be made obselete by metallurgy. Getting the leader for Sun Tzu, IIRC, was public knowledge shortly after it happened.

Eh, doesn't matter now anyway. Your perception was what it was, even if I might think it odd.

-Arrian

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arrian
Ghengis: Yeah, but did we complete wonders that really matter? Sun Tzu, maybe, but that's gotta be 3rd place among the big three (Sun Tzu, Sistine, Leos).
-Arrian

That's the point, you obviously has so much overproduction you had overflow to build virtually every wonder available regardless of whether it was useful or not.

[vmxa1]

First of all I want to thank all the posters for the background. I found it very enjoyable to read.
I would also agree it does not seem like fun to beat or lose to people that you sort of consider as friends.
This type of game needs to be against strangers or with people that you realy have a close relationship with. Some one that you know will be able to realize it was just a game, if you have to decieve them.

The other thing that strikes me is how much the luck of the draw plays in a game like this. It is not like so very cold, where you can out play the AI. People can and will make mistakes, but they will none the less play intelligently. Making it hard to over come any significant handicap.

For someone that does not even like to make deals with the AI, the effort put into these games is very daunting. The skill of the players on these teams is so high, here is very little room for error.

[badams52]

As an outsider, I would like to thank all of you for declassifying information about the recent Bobian war. It has been a very interesting and informative read that can be carried over to other DGs and PBEMs as well.

[ZargonX]

As an insider, I also appreciate the teams coming and discussing the issue involved with the Bobian War. I would also appreciate it you would continue to declassify information, including, but not limited to, troops movements, production plans, and future goals.

/me gets his notepad...