The "Mad Scientist Trick"

[nbarclay]

In the AU 501 game, I reached a point where I could research a tech at 90% in five turns and wanted to try to get it in four turns at 100%. First, I tried rushing construction of some libraries and universities in outlying areas, but that alone wasn't enough. With three turns left on my research (trying to get it down to two), I went to all my outlying cities with high corruption levels and few improvements and turned anyone I could without going into negative growth into a scientist. With enough scientists on the job, my research time went down from five turns to four. I call this the "mad scientist trick" because it involves "hiring scientists like mad" all over the outskirts of the empire.

Granted, the micromanagement involved is a bit absurd, and it's even worse if you can't get enough scientists and have to give up and set some back to their previous jobs. (That happened to me too, when I tried the tech earlier.) And it does set back growth in cities that give up food to get scientists. But if you're desperate enough to speed up a tech (and, in the process, all the other techs that follow that one), the trick can sometimes work.

Nathan

[JimiD]

Is this not a valid use of high corruption cities, which are high in food and low in production?

The times I have done this I wasnt sure if it helped (since I never did nearly enough to get a readable result as described - very poor at MM). However it felt like an exploit: the research from the city is lost to corruption, but the research from a scientist is not, presumably this bonus applies to taxmen as well.

Is there not a 'how to make best use of cities beyond the OCN' thread, and if not, is this the start of it (too much history to find razing cities intuitive).

Get them to size 6 and WLTK (may be harder in C3C with less luxuries, but since I am on PTW, what do I care), aim for maximum food, and support as many specialists as possible. actually WLTK is not important after all, and nor is size 6, and nor is the version of Civ 3

(this illustrates why I post rarely).

James

[Harovan]

The version of Civ3 is very important on the use of specialists, considering that taxmen produce two gold and scientists three beakers per turn per default, and with civil engineers (2 shields, non-military projects only) and policemen ("un-corrupting" 1 commerce and "un-wasting" 1 shield) there are 2 more kinds of specialists in Conquests.

High food (all irrigated+RR'd) and massive use of specialists is a good way to get conquered land halfway productive now.

[Cort Haus]

If, or rather when, at war during the mid-game in C3C - if you have say 5 size 10 cities that need 'starving down', making them all scientists for 3 beakers per pop each turn can contribute huge amounts of science.

A fair bit of clicking each turn, but it's there for the taking ...

[:) Smiley]

This reminds me of Xinning in Civ2, how does it compare?

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
If, or rather when, at war during the mid-game in C3C - if you have say 5 size 10 cities that need 'starving down', making them all scientists for 3 beakers per pop each turn can contribute huge amounts of science.

A fair bit of clicking each turn, but it's there for the taking ...

I am actually in the process of starving down several captured metros in my current game. I will try this and see if it really helps my science. Thanks.

[JimiD]

'The version of Civ3 is very important on the use of specialists'

Thank you, I stand corrected...

[badams52]

Ah, yes. That's the same trick I used in the game I played where I didn't build ANY improvements in my cities back in vanilla civ. All cities that were fully corrupted, and there were tons of them without courthouses, FP, etc, I grew to size 6 or 12 if they were on the river and turned all the extra food into gold.

For the size 12 I remember having anywhere from 5 to 7 taxmen and the size 6 having 2-4 taxmen. Gave me lots of gold that otherwise would have been lost to corruption.

[CerberusIV]

Yes, one of my earlier C3C games was with the Sumerians. Thanks to some irrigated RR'd floodplain with cities on rivers I had 2 or 3 cities where four working citizens were able to support 8 specialists. Very useful compared to the negligible output they would otherwise have had.

[CerberusIV]

I tried scientists in captured cities I was starving down. It does seem to work most of the time and was a useful contribution.

I then tried a few civil engineers but this was less effective, perhaps because every time a citizen starves the citizens are reset and they all turned into entertainers. This didn't seem to affect the scientists so much.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Smiley
This reminds me of Xinning in Civ2, how does it compare?

Not quite, because in Xinning you altered starving periods with periods filling the food box to avoid pop reduction, while Cort Haus meant to starve a city down with the goal of pop reduction (to get rid of foreign citizens).

[bongo]

I'm not familiar with the term 'xinning' but I also remember alternating a city between civil disorder and full production to build stuff faster. I doesn't work in civ3 though.

[GhengisFarb™]

I hadn't realized that the output from Specialists was corruption free. I will have to utilize this more often.

[Arrian]

I used to use taxmen when starving cities down, but recently I tried using scientists, and due to the fact that I had recently captured several large enemy cities, the science output was enough to shave 1 turn off a tech and allow 4-turn research on another running 10% less science that otherwise. Good stuff.

-Arrian

[GhengisFarb™]

If you have scientists in a recently captured city and the city is still rioting due to resistence, do the beakers from the scientists still count?

[Catt]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
If you have scientists in a recently captured city and the city is still rioting due to resistence, do the beakers from the scientists still count?

Yup.

The availability of the "mad scientist gambit" and the "welcome to tax hell gambit" opens up all sorts of painful (or joyful, depending on your tastes) opportunities for micro-management: What if these 35 taxmen throughout my empire were scientists? Would I decrease my research time? Let's find out by manually switching each specialist in the F1 screen. Didn't have a turn effect and won't allow me to lower my slider without compromising my turns? OK, let's switch them all back to taxmen. Of course, one could always just keep track of every beaker invested, calculate the exact reseacrh costs for a given tech, and decipher when and for how long scientists will be useful in any given project . . .

Catt

[lethe]

I'm a compulsive micromanager. And quite unhappy about it. It's ok the first time, when you want to figure out the exact layout for optimal growth. But switching specialists back and forth is just insanely slow. Especially if cycling past the Entertainer makes a difference between no content and some content citizens, as that will shift the entire row of specialists so you misclick if you click fast.

And it's not just scientists going to tax men and back. It's all those engineers losing their job when a military unit is built. And all engineers need to be shifted on the round an improvement is built, to get cash or tech instead of throwing shields out the window.

I'd love a right-click menu with options like
"Change ALL to Engineer"
"Change ALL to Engineer without causing unrest" (Ie, leave enough entertainers to keep from unrest.)

95% of the time all specialists in any given city are on the same task. Atleast for me. 0-[Silly number] Entertainers. All the rest are the same type. Almost always Engineer or Scientist.

Only time they are split is if building military units. Then I usually have Entertainers, Police to reclaim all red shields and then Scientists.

My god, they must add a way to manage this more quickly!

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Catt


Yup.

The availability of the "mad scientist gambit" and the "welcome to tax hell gambit" opens up all sorts of painful (or joyful, depending on your tastes) opportunities for micro-management: What if these 35 taxmen throughout my empire were scientists? Would I decrease my research time? Let's find out by manually switching each specialist in the F1 screen. Didn't have a turn effect and won't allow me to lower my slider without compromising my turns? OK, let's switch them all back to taxmen. Of course, one could always just keep track of every beaker invested, calculate the exact reseacrh costs for a given tech, and decipher when and for how long scientists will be useful in any given project . . .

Catt

I certainly don't micromanage quite that much in SP games. In democracy and PBEM games though it's another story.

[Arrian]

Yeah, and that's why I don't do it much. I typically pick one type of specialist and make 'em all that type. Some games it's scientists, some games it's taxmen. But since scientists produce 3 beakers vs. the taxman's 2 gold, it seems best to go with the scientists.

In a MP demogame, however, one could theoretically keep track of every beaker and maximize one's use of specialists... Oh no...

-Arrian (Secretary of Labor for the American Imperialists in the MZO C3C Demogame)

edit: crosspost with Rhoth - V.P of the American Imperialists. Well, I'm done for now

[MattPilot]

does Specialist output get modified by city improvements? For example, do the 2 shields produced by the civil engineer suddenly become 5 shields if the city has a factory & a nuclear power plant?

Same goes for beakers - do library's/universities modify that value?

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by MattPilot
does Specialist output get modified by city improvements? For example, do the 2 shields produced by the civil engineer suddenly become 5 shields if the city has a factory & a nuclear power plant?

Same goes for beakers - do library's/universities modify that value?

I would assume not, seeing as their output isn't affected by corruption it is most likely not considered city specific. More like its a bonus value.

[Arrian]

AFAIK, specialists are unaffected by libraries/markets/etc. But I don't have access to the game right now to check, so I'm not 100% positive.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by MattPilot
does Specialist output get modified by city improvements? For example, do the 2 shields produced by the civil engineer suddenly become 5 shields if the city has a factory & a nuclear power plant?

Same goes for beakers - do library's/universities modify that value?

No.

[vmxa1]

Catt either you have been reading to many of Dominae's post or this is a DL

[Catt]

Originally posted by lethe
But switching specialists back and forth is just insanely slow. Especially if cycling past the Entertainer makes a difference between no content and some content citizens, as that will shift the entire row of specialists so you misclick if you click fast.

I hate that.

And it's not just scientists going to tax men and back. It's all those engineers losing their job when a military unit is built. And all engineers need to be shifted on the round an improvement is built, to get cash or tech instead of throwing shields out the window.

I don't so much mind engineers -- you can set them and forget about them until the build completes or the pop grows -- either way, there is no reason to check them every single turn.

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
I certainly don't micromanage quite that much in SP games.

Nor I; I haven't the stomach for it. But I do find myself doing so fairly often for small windows within any given game. Fortunately, by the late middle ages / early industrial ages, in many of my games in any event, it is fairly efficient to just set them all as taxmen or all as scientists, trading some inefficiency for a much less intensive MM regime.

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, and that's why I don't do it much. I typically pick one type of specialist and make 'em all that type. Some games it's scientists, some games it's taxmen. But since scientists produce 3 beakers vs. the taxman's 2 gold, it seems best to go with the scientists.

I think you and I have similar MM tolerance levels. I tend to use scientists early; a mixture in the early and early-mid game; and taxmen in the later game -- although the scientists give 3 beakers instead of 2 gold, excess beakers are wasted while excess gold is always available, and once the tech prices become high enough (and one's research effective enough) it's not terribly unlikely for a good chunk of the scientists' efforts to be wasted whereas the taxmen will usefully be stealing the last gold from widows and orphans.

In any event, at some point in the game I just set the specialists to one or the other so I can then ignore them.

Catt

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Catt
Nor I; I haven't the stomach for it. But I do find myself doing so fairly often for small windows within any given game.

That's about how I feel. I usually micromanage intensively in the early game, but once my cities are running nicely I will not micromanage the work force nearly as much. I do however still manage my workers myself throughout the game no matter what. I can't stand watching my workers do dumb things.

[Cort Haus]

It works with cities in disorder too. They don't consume food, so make 'em all scientists/taxmen.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Catt either you have been reading to many of Dominae's post or this is a DL.

I'll take that as a compliment...

[vmxa1]

Indeed it is one.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae

I'll take that as a compliment...

No, no, no - I'll take it as a compliment -- you should be nonplussed.

Originally posted by vmxa1

Indeed it is one.

Shouldn't you be out on a birthday dinner? Happy B-day!

Catt