September 22, 2004, 01:33
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#301
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Emperor
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Ok, that is maybe making things more blurred, but below there is citation from SMAC Academy site buglist:
43. If a base completes construction of a facility or secret project and its build queue is empty, then for that turn the base will accumulate energy as if production had been set to stockpile energy in addition to accumulating the usual amount of minerals.
44. If a base completes construction of a unit and its build queue contains stockpile energy as the next item to build, then for that turn the base will accumulate energy as if production had been set to stockpile energy in addition to accumulating the usual amount of minerals.
I consider this buglist quite acurate, but I think there may be more. And about number of bugs in mentioned SMAC Academy? There are 77 of them, and it is really discourageing... Back to stockpile, it means that there are like two "stockpile bug" versions.
One works when putting a stocpile energy into the queue, but only after a unit.
Second is when building queue is EMPTY, after facility or SP.
I need to write one more thing in defence of those who might use the bug.
- I noticed really many players agree for using it. As far as I know, SMAC Diplomacy Games allow it too. So it may become a custom. I know everyone here has good intentions.
- I play for fun. I do not want anyone get harsh judgement. I enjoy roleplaying side of it and playing with human players, coz it's just without comparison to AI.
We may agree presently for the rules. Walek sent some time ago a ruleset in MS Word format. Maybe we all should get it and read. However, I noticed these rules do not include all bugs, e.g. "second stockpile bug". What do you think? It is just a proposition.
If all this is kinda overwhelming and making chaos, I propose to talk about rules now, and forget all past things. (For example, the offer to use a stockpile bug for 34 years by others is quite generous, bases will get more energy in this time, so you would probably loose a lot, Shawn. I do not think that would bring balance. So I can say - I would require this much.) Lazerus has final say here. Whatever you decide, Lazerus. You are our CMN.
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September 22, 2004, 03:40
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#302
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Prince
Local Time: 13:08
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By the way, instead of running my mouth (I have coffee in me now, I am officially awake  ) I went to the PBEM rules link Lazurus started the game with. Here's the quote:
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Inserting Stockpile Energy into the build queue after a military unit is forbidden.
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That's why I asked, I believe it was Googlie or Darsnan, about the interpretation of that and found out that it includes terraformers, probe teams, supply units, etc. It really should read after any unit. I've followed that rule carefully. I'll check when I get home in the morning if I've actually gained any energy from using Stockpile Energy after base facilities, I've been doing it for so long I can't remember if that's something I figured out in my solo days and tested, or something I read somewhere in the last two years.
Oh, and I'm still enjoying the game either way. I'm getting to be a genuine builder, it looks like I have a nice neighbor with an easy to fortify isthmus - trust me, I am definitively enjoying myself. Now what to do for the next ad campaign....
__________________
The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
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September 22, 2004, 03:47
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#303
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Emperor
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And just after the link, he writes:
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Though if all players consent now then the stockpile bug may be used.
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I believe we neglected this remark and never discussed it. It's our players fault.
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September 22, 2004, 03:54
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#304
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Prince
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I assumed he meant for military units - note, assumed - bad me.
__________________
The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
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September 22, 2004, 08:57
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#305
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Emperor
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So guys, please read the rules listed above and see cases 43. & 44.
43. Says that after an SP or facility queue must be EMPTY to exploit the bug
44. Says that after a unit queue must have "stockpile energy" to exploit the bug
I've been Shawmcc's pactmate for a time being and I see him putting the "stockpile" everywhere, so the harm done is not so big as while we ALL exploited the bug in facility and SP building, but not in unit building, he did right the other way - not in SP's and facilities but in units!
So - I think scales are quite even!
And after all - Shawnmcc has lost 1 city to MWs due to lack of garrison, so where could he be, if it wasn't so?
We must all assume that even if he cheated, the gain from it was quite small and he would be so mighty in-game as he is now even without cheating!
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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September 22, 2004, 17:44
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#306
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Emperor
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The bug no. 43 is as far as I know not very well know to most players. It is also omited in many rulesets. It was unknown to me for long time too.
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September 23, 2004, 04:28
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#307
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Emperor
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Quote:
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The bug no. 43 is as far as I know not very well know to most players. It is also omited in many rulesets. It was unknown to me for long time too.
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Same as for me!
So, we must assume we're all cheaters!
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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September 23, 2004, 06:17
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#308
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Emperor
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Onwards
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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September 23, 2004, 08:05
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#309
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King
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and on, I think we acn allow using it and ignore all that happend.
any budy against it?
__________________
"Some one told me former operators are not supposed to think much, that's good. I think that was the reason I took this job, ha, that and of course the fact the commissar said so." -t_ras: life through the former operators eye :)
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September 23, 2004, 08:12
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#310
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Emperor
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Quote:
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I think we acn allow using it and ignore all that happend.
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No, please don't use it anymore!
I am a fair player and to learn to cheat this way will be hard for me as there will be times when I forget to put the stockpile..
So, better don't use it at all (even don't put it after facilities to avoid the other part of bug)
I think it will be quite fair..
Or is someone going to pump out 10min scout patrols each turn in 50min base just get that stockpile?
About ignore - it should be OK
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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September 24, 2004, 13:29
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#311
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King
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Thats new to me aswell about bug 43 (If shawns been inserting stockpile after facilities and you guys haven't then he's the victim lol!). As i've said i always thought the bug only occured when inserting after a military unit and Poly's rules which forbid this have always backed up that view.
I'm leaning more and more towards the idea of just calling on all to stop the use inserting stockpile into the build queue and no other action to be taken due to my own, and seemingly several rule sets which guide MP games having different views about how this bug actually works and the fact this is more a fun game rather then a serious championship so nobody wants endless argueing.
Any serious objections ?
__________________
Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendant, and to embrace them is to acheive enlightenment.
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September 24, 2004, 22:34
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#312
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Lazerus
..... this is more a fun game rather then a serious championship ...
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I agree completely. I am glad we have it this way. 
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September 27, 2004, 05:42
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#313
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Any serious objections ?
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Let's just go on!
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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September 27, 2004, 21:22
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#314
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Emperor
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2136 to Gaians
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September 28, 2004, 10:21
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#315
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Emperor
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2136 to T_Ras
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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October 5, 2004, 08:57
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#316
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Prince
Local Time: 13:08
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2136 to Lal
Did some experimenting. Adding or not adding the stockpile energy option after either base facilities or SP's MAKES NO DIFFERERENCE (SMAC version 5). You get the extra energy no matter what. Now with units it makes a difference, no stockpile command, no extra energy. So no matter what the intent, we are all equal, nobody got any extra energy, and we are all the wiser.
How to test - start single player. Found base. Editor. Give yourself two pop and two forests (maybe with a nutrient square). Give yourself Social Pysch and Biogenetics. Play around with a base facility, manipulating minerals. It makes no difference if you complete with left over minerals, just complete, or frankly anything else I could think of. You get the extra energy. I chose two pop and two forests so I'd have enough minerals I could discount any possible rounding errors.
__________________
The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
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October 5, 2004, 13:09
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#317
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Emperor
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deleted:
sorry, wrong thread! 
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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October 5, 2004, 22:09
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#318
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Emperor
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2137 to Gaians
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October 8, 2004, 14:58
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#319
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King
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??
__________________
"Some one told me former operators are not supposed to think much, that's good. I think that was the reason I took this job, ha, that and of course the fact the commissar said so." -t_ras: life through the former operators eye :)
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October 11, 2004, 04:11
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#320
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Emperor
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Please, resend! 
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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October 11, 2004, 05:33
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#321
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Emperor
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fwd! 
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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October 11, 2004, 10:43
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#322
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King
Local Time: 19:08
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turned
__________________
"Some one told me former operators are not supposed to think much, that's good. I think that was the reason I took this job, ha, that and of course the fact the commissar said so." -t_ras: life through the former operators eye :)
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October 12, 2004, 11:59
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#323
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Prince
Local Time: 13:08
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2137 to Lal
__________________
The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
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October 12, 2004, 21:35
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#324
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Emperor
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haven't received it yet. Is resend needed?
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October 13, 2004, 04:31
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#325
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Emperor
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Yep, I'm waiting too! 
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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October 13, 2004, 04:36
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#326
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Prince
Local Time: 13:08
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I'll post it here when I get home in about two hours, no idea what happened to it - cyberspace eats another email.
__________________
The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
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October 13, 2004, 08:27
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#327
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Prince
Local Time: 13:08
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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Turn attached
Also fowarded turn - did you get the second copy?
__________________
The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.
Last edited by Mr. Harley; October 13, 2004 at 09:15.
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October 13, 2004, 09:45
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#328
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Emperor
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The second copy was somehow corrupted. Attached file was .eml extension and it was not valid zip file, which i checked by changing the extension to .zip But the file ttached here works
2138 to Gaians
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October 14, 2004, 11:42
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#329
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Emperor
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2138 to T_Ras
__________________
-- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
-- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
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October 15, 2004, 04:29
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#330
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King
Local Time: 19:08
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mongered
__________________
"Some one told me former operators are not supposed to think much, that's good. I think that was the reason I took this job, ha, that and of course the fact the commissar said so." -t_ras: life through the former operators eye :)
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