Video of Today's suicide bombing - Jan 29th

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I've seen them with my own eyes, so I don't know why you're still waiting.

In the Line of Fire

OMG own goal, total own goal!

A shell landed on your balcony?

It exploded just a few balconies from us, but there was a burst of fire on our balcony too. We actually couldn't believe it, and then we read that our area had been hit by some new piece of artillery that was being used by the Palestinians.

Chegitz, you have been PWNED!!!!!!!!!!!

[Docfeelgood]

Fvcking animals

[Az]

Originally posted by Agathon

From the point of view of Sharon, it is about race.

you have no proof of that.

He has long been a proponent of "Eretz Israel" and a supporter of the settlers -

yes.

and they in my view are engaged in a form of ethnic cleansing.

No.

Israeli Arabs have long been complaining about being treated as second class citizens - but that's not the main point. What is, is that Rabin entered the peace process in favour of partition because he knows that demographics are not on the side of the Jews. In ten years Jews will be in the minority in the current territories controlled by Israel.

Yes, that's also one of the reasons why I favor partition. It has nothing to do with racism.

Partition is desirable for this bunch because it ensures the survival of Israel as a "Jewish" state. I have problems with race based states in general (except under certain well defined circumstances)

well, in the millionth time, neither 'jewish' or 'arab' here is not defined by race.

but that's not the pressing problem here. The best thing for all parties in my view would be complete withdrawal of Israel from all the occupied territories and a very limited right of return.

well, the opinion of the most Israeli public is something along those lines, but with no right of return, and some small corrections to the border. The opinion of the palestinian public is quite different.

Anything else is bound to create too much trouble. On the subject of a race based Israeli state, no one is going to quibble if it keeps the peace, even if the notion of a state based on race is repugnant. What does annoy people is when attempts to preserve racial purity cause harm. Of all peoples in the world, the Jews should know this better than anyone else - yet here we have Jews who are quite willing to become the thing they profess to hate. Thank God there are some who still get it - like that Rabbi who stopped the bulldozers the other week. Hurrah for him and all who walk with him!!!

How's that Rabbi connected to racial purity? Israel does not use criteria of race, but of culture and nationality. Those are different things, and I support those criteria. The Jews shouldn't be somehow reminded of their past in europe. Their past in europe has shown that they CANNOT integrate just because of their ethnicity. That even if they completely blend in, they'd be fished out of the pond, and killed, or discriminated. This is not the case in Israel. People that become Israelis and join the Israeli culture are treated as Israelis.

One of the most shameful aspects of this business is the way that opponents of the occupation are painted as "self-hating Jews". For a culture whose relgious practice is constituted in part by intepretation and debate, this is a disgrace. In fact the real Jews are the ones committed to peace - the others have abandoned their history (another big no no in their culture) and sided with the oppressors over the oppressed (again, another big no no).

Whoa, since when do you think that Zionism is keeping with jewish tradition?! On the contrary, Zionism, from it's earliest times has tried to chage jewish tradition and religion, by assuming national responsibility for the fait of those people, and not be allowed to be pushed around as in te past.

However, Sharon has made it clear that he isn't interested in a fair solution. What he wants is a West Bank that is turned into Balkanized Bantustans. This is not much different from South Africa in my view. Or he wants transfer, which would be a major crime against humanity.

This is another claim that you'll have to work rather hard to establish, if you'll be able to establish it, at all.

Sharon is a racist. The minister that the Arabs killed a while back was a racist too. He referred to the Palestinians as lice, in a scary echo of what Nazi officials used to call Jews. Sharon has done almost everything he can to undermine peace and provoke extremism while at the same time trying to blame Arafat, whom he has reduced to an irrelevance in Palestinian circles.

It's quite sad that you know very little about what you're talking about and still have little trouble making such bold claims. Of course, links, and

Sharon and all the other Likudniks are racist scum. The fact that he and his ilk have managed to manipulate Israeli public opinion (in various ways) into direct conflict with the entire Jewish tradition, which is one of peace, tolerance and empathy with the underdog, is a disgrace. Shame on him.

Well, I am proud to tell you that I and most other Israelis have renounced the jewish tradition. That's what zionism is all about, and I am proud of it. And what is that 'empathy with the underdog' bull? This is as stupid as it's reverse, 'might makes right'.

I don't like the suicide bombings, but that doesn't mean that I automatically jump to the Likud view of things. I don't like bulldozing people's houses either, but that doesn't mean I have to support Hamas.

If only one of the bombers could get Sharon. He's a large and slow-moving target. I'd crack open a beer if they did.

Wow, what a great insight

[Az]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Suicide bombing is the culmination of 50 years of oppression. It's a cry for help, it's revenge, it's vengeance. It's young people who believe they have no future and no hope.

And the Zionists still don't get it?

Make a just PEACE now!

There is a wide array of facts that counter your argument:

The vast majority of suicide bombers is middle class. They are not dumb people, they're not crazy. They're well calculated. It's actually a pattern among suicide attacks. The purpetrators aren't cornered animals, or something. The people who are in truly bad shape, the farmers and their families, they're the least active. The suicide bombers have money. Some of them are palestinian policemen.

[Docfeelgood]

Know what you do to a dog that is rabid? Ya kill it.


Rabid people?......


Like I said, they are ANIMALS!

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Azazel


There is a wide array of facts that counter your argument:

The vast majority of suicide bombers is middle class. They are not dumb people, they're not crazy. They're well calculated. It's actually a pattern among suicide attacks.

But isn't that the point? Basically you have sane well educated middle class kids who feel so hopeless, desperate, frustrated and angry that they think the only forward or out is actually strap on a bomb and blow yourself up? This is not a recipe for peace.

[Az]

Point is, they're not the only one that are feeling bad, but still are the only ones that explode, which leads to the conclusion that the feeling bad part isn't the part that makes them explode.

[Alexander's Horse]

I think the difference is they don't have a military force which can match it with the IDF and they are under occupation so they use other means, in some cases very extreme like suicide bombing, to get attention.

It seems to be working - isn't Sharon plummeting in the polls?

[Oncle Boris]

Isn't Sharon responsible for the massacre of 600 refugees, when he was an officer in the army?

If so, that qualifies him for racism and crime against humanity.

[Az]

Alexander's Horse:

It seems to be working - isn't Sharon plummeting in the polls?

Erm, that didn't hurt him for 3 years. he's down in polls, but that's due to that corruption investigation going on. ( I hope he's down for THAT, btw )

I think the difference is they don't have a military force which can match it with the IDF and they are under occupation so they use other means, in some cases very extreme like suicide bombing, to get attention.

To get attention to their plight, you mean? no. That can be done much better. They ARE trying to use this as a balancing weapon against Israel, but that doesn't make it right.


Uncle Boris:

Isn't Sharon responsible for the massacre of 600 refugees, when he was an officer in the army?

If so, that qualifies him for racism and crime against humanity.

600 refugees? He's been held inderectly responsible for the murder of 900 palestinians by Chrisitan Lebanonese, but that's administrative responsibility, as he was Minister of Defence then.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Sabra and Shatila

Sharon is guilty of averting his eyes when the Christian Phalange was allowed into the camps and began slaughtering people. Since the Israeli troops could see and hear (in addition to being told by refugees begging for help) what was giong on, Sharon was almost certainly informed, and chose to let the massacre go on for three (?) days before the Israelis finally stepped in and stopped it. He didn't do it, he just let it happen. As the legal authority in that part of Lebanon, that makes him legally responsible.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
Chegitz, you have been PWNED!!!!!!!!!!!

What the hell are you talking about?

[Az]

Sharon is guilty of averting his eyes when the Christian Phalange was allowed into the camps and began slaughtering people. Since the Israeli troops could see and hear (in addition to being told by refugees begging for help) what was giong on, Sharon was almost certainly informed, and chose to let the massacre go on for three (?) days before the Israelis finally stepped in and stopped it. He didn't do it, he just let it happen. As the legal authority in that part of Lebanon, that makes him legally responsible.

a)why is Israel the legal authority in a Lebanese civil war we intervened in?
b) why do you think he was informed about something done by some 20 phalangists in Lebanon as MoD?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Azazel
a)why is Israel the legal authority in a Lebanese civil war we intervened in?

International law. As the occupier, Israel assumed repsonsibility for enforcing the peace, protecting human life and property, etc., just as the U.S. has in Iraq.

b) why do you think he was informed about something done by some 20 phalangists in Lebanon as MoD?

Because something like that would have gone right up the chain of command, especially as the soliders on the ground wanted to stop the massacre. Plus, from what I've read, Sharon was being updated as to the situation there.

[Az]

International law. As the occupier, Israel assumed repsonsibility for enforcing the peace, protecting human life and property, etc., just as the U.S. has in Iraq.

Well, but this isn't that simple. There are also Lebanese Christians that hold that territory, that claim sovereignity. It's not as if Israel has simply occupied the country, it has intervened in a civil war.

Because something like that would have gone right up the chain of command, especially as the soliders on the ground wanted to stop the massacre. Plus, from what I've read, Sharon was being updated as to the situation there.

So, why were they stopped in the end?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Azazel

Quote:

International law. As the occupier, Israel assumed repsonsibility for enforcing the peace, protecting human life and property, etc., just as the U.S. has in Iraq.

Well, but this isn't that simple. There are also Lebanese Christians that hold that territory, that claim sovereignity. It's not as if Israel has simply occupied the country, it has intervened in a civil war.

Dude, that's just semantics (and a little BS). It was an invasion, not an intervention. Israel was the real authority in Beruit and all points south. The Christian Phalagne didn't hold that territory, Israel did (and the PLO before them).

Quote:

Because something like that would have gone right up the chain of command, especially as the soliders on the ground wanted to stop the massacre. Plus, from what I've read, Sharon was being updated as to the situation there.

So, why were they stopped in the end?

Because it was really making Israel look bad, even at the Reagan White House. It hard to justify your support for an invasion when the invaders are allowing a massacre to go on for days.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Zylka
Agathon. Would be nice if you patronize the druggy with some form of answer, Mr. Philosophy degree

Have you seen the status of Native Americans in the Canada you currently occupy? Would you like to tell me what you're doing here - why our absolute destruction, displacement, and current s* treatment of the "rightful owners" is any different?

Why are you living here, buddy? What's the difference? Would things change if the beloved "Geneva Convention" were retroactive inclusive of a "crime" which dwarves Israel?

1. The Geneva Conventon did not exist at that time, nor do the natives have the legal standing that others in similar situation (like the NZ Maori do). But that's only the legal question.

2. I'm all for doing something about past injustices to Native Americans - so I find it strange to be accused of the opposite. But there is an important rider to that, which is: don't do anything that will make things worse off overall. Sure we could return all stolen land on principle, but that would destroy the economy and harm millions of people, including those who we wanted to compensate. So we do other things...

If you read what I wrote you will see I'm quite prepared to endorse significant compromise because it would be a gross human rights violation and an economic and political disaster to forcibly move every Israeli - and where would we put them. Moreover a general right of return is out of the question for much the same reasons. Even if the Israelis are fundamentally in the wrong it's still lunacy to require the destruction of Israel and the forcible removal of Jews from the Middle East.

[Az]

Dude, that's just semantics (and a little BS). It was an invasion, not an intervention. Israel was the real authority in Beruit and all points south. The Christian Phalagne didn't hold that territory, Israel did (and the PLO before them).

This is NOT true. Niether Israel nor the PLO held or even could hold all that ground in a hostile enviroment ( and it was hostile for both Israel and the PLO ). There was no well defined administration or occupation in Lebanon, by no government, whether Israeli, Christian, Palestinian, or Syrian.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


What the hell are you talking about?

You realize that the site you linked to has much more stuff about the Palestinian mistreatment of the press than that of the Israelis, don't you? I quoted a reporter who says Palestinian artillery hit the building she was in.

Hence, the own goal pwnage.

[Tattila the Hun]

So, how long will it take the Israelis and Palestinians to kill eachother of? Maybe we can move along then...

I'm wating for the Hamas or someone to get their hands on an old soviet nuke and blasting it in Jerusalem. Maybe that would get them all finally to get their heads of their asses to see, that they are not alone there, nor will they ever be. Nothing creates peace more quickly than carnage... Hmmm, though it should have worked by now.
How was the state of Israel founded? It seems to have been the greatest practical joke in human history.
"Let's give them a dry patch of land with dosen different ethnic groups all hating each other, sit back, and enjoy the show."
Adolf is ROFLHAO...

To sum it up, they're all idiots.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Convenient but misleading.

I happen to believe that there are people of goodwill on both sides and the majority of people be they Israeli or Palestinian want to live in peace with their neighbour.

So do I, though I don't know if they are the majority. The fact is, though, that it's easier to just type "Israelis" and "Palesinians"

[Alexander's Horse]

These kids that do the bombing - it seems to me that the recruiters prey upon on young idealistic people with depression.

I'd like to know what role depression plays in the decision.

The people they should get are the ones who recruit, such a cowardly thing to do.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel

This is NOT true. Niether Israel nor the PLO held or even could hold all that ground in a hostile enviroment ( and it was hostile for both Israel and the PLO ). There was no well defined administration or occupation in Lebanon, by no government, whether Israeli, Christian, Palestinian, or Syrian.

Sorry Azazel BUT:

The IDF controlled all movement into the camps. Had the IDF not allowed the Phalangist to enter (and the IDF had full power to do so), which they did, there would have been no massacre. And what was the point of letting armed militia of one side into a refugee camps filed with civlians from the other side? There was none.

Which is why Israel itself found Sharon indirectly responsible.

Begin's little whinning notwithstading, Israeli frces aided and abbeted the massacres that day, if only by providing the criminals full access and then doing nothing.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
I think it's a little funny that North Americans and Europeans believe that they understand anything at all about the Palestinian mindset.

And you do? Israelis do?

They certainly don't act as if they did.

[blackice]

Fact is, given the numbers of deaths, the Israelis are either sloppy and incompetent or simply don't care about non-combatant deaths.

Are you a nutbar? One side kills anyone the other tries not to, what stats are you refering to post em....

I dare you to come on lammer post em...

[Ned]

It is good to see Agathon and GePap posting something reasonable on the ME situation. I applaud you.

As to the "control access" bit about Sharon, let us put forth a hypothetical. Would Churchill have been complicit in America's warcrimes if Bomber Harris had been an American and it was the Americans who were weekly firebombing German cities at night? After all, he controlled our "access" to British airfields.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by blackice

Quote:

Fact is, given the numbers of deaths, the Israelis are either sloppy and incompetent or simply don't care about non-combatant deaths.

Are you a nutbar? One side kills anyone the other tries not to, what stats are you refering to post em....

I dare you to come on lammer post em...

Reread the thread. The numbers are repeated several times.

[Jaguar]

You clearly are avoiding the fact that I caught you in an own goal pwnage.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
You clearly are avoiding the fact that I caught you in an own goal pwnage.

Not really. That statement was made that made that Siro had never seen any evidence of Israli troops deliberately targetting the media. I provided him with a link from a respected new program. I never said that the terrorists weren't also targetting the media.

[Alexander's Horse]

Do any of us want to see the young Israeli guys on this forum shot up?

I think not. We love you guys.

But I still think the Palestinians have a case.