January 30, 2004, 13:45
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#31
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Local Time: 13:18
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The main problem is the US has veto power in the UNSC. After all, Europe would need UN approval to do this, right?
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“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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January 30, 2004, 14:01
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#32
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Local Time: 13:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In search of pants
Posts: 5,085
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The main problem is the US has veto power in the UNSC. After all, Europe would need UN approval to do this, right?
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I am sure a NATO operation to take out the US could be arranged.
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January 30, 2004, 14:19
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#33
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Warlord
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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u have to build an army first mate.
maybe stop paying ppl to not work and u might be able to get one. though I doubt it.
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January 30, 2004, 14:22
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#34
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:18
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Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Arrian
Because the imagine of the Poles was that they fought, even if it was hopeless and they got flattened. Their Cavalry charged the Tanks, ffs.
-Arrian
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The French fought too, it just once they were outflanked, they realized there was no point in contuing the fight, they were defeated. On the other hand, the French people continued fighting the invaders throughout the whole war. Ever hear of the French Resistence? French commies kicked ass.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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January 30, 2004, 14:29
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#35
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Deity
Local Time: 13:18
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Because the image of the Poles was that they fought.
Image. Sorry for the typo. I wasn't saying that perception = reality. I was explaining the perception.
-Arrian
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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January 30, 2004, 14:47
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#36
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Emperor
Local Time: 12:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
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Posts: 18,269
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Quote:
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The French fought too, it just once they were outflanked, they realized there was no point in contuing the fight, they were defeated.
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6 weeks to Paris, given roughly approximate military technology to Hitler? I call that pretty feeble 'resistance.'
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Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
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January 30, 2004, 15:00
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#37
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Deity
Local Time: 13:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
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Quote:
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The French fought too, it just once they were outflanked, they realized there was no point in contuing the fight, they were defeated. On the other hand, the French people continued fighting the invaders throughout the whole war. Ever hear of the French Resistence? French commies kicked ass.
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the whole war?? France was occupied in June of 1940. IIUC the commies didnt start fighting in the resistance till June of 1941. Remember what happened in June 1941??
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
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January 30, 2004, 15:13
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#38
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PolyCast Thread Necromancer
Local Time: 17:18
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Location: We are all Asher now.
Posts: 1,437
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Arrian
Because the imagine of the Poles was that they fought, even if it was hopeless and they got flattened. Their Cavalry charged the Tanks, ffs.
-Arrian
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That's pretty messed up.
But then again, such is fiction
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January 30, 2004, 15:16
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#39
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Deity
Local Time: 13:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
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Quote:
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Originally posted by St Leo
Quote:
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The main problem is the US has veto power in the UNSC. After all, Europe would need UN approval to do this, right?
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I am sure a NATO operation to take out the US could be arranged.
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it would be led by the Belgian army, whose MOD proclaims how much more efficient the Belgian army is than the American army.
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
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January 30, 2004, 15:17
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#40
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King
Local Time: 18:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dilbert
Posts: 1,839
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Explain to me why that's such a ridiculous assertion.
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January 30, 2004, 15:45
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#41
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Prince
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Bristol, European Union
Posts: 573
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Quote:
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Originally posted by yavoon
u have to build an army first mate.
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What a wonderful example of total ignorance, the number of people in the armed forces in europe is (and always has been) significantly more than in the US.
The difference is that our forces are designed to defend europe whereas US forces are designed to be shifted around (both of which are legacies from the cold war)
Quote:
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Originally posted by yavoon
maybe stop paying ppl to not work and u might be able to get one. though I doubt it.
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Well that's also ignorance, as those countries with the most generous welfare states (mainly scandinavian ones) actually employ a higher proportion of their working-age populations than the US does.
Whereas those that have lacklustre welfare states (Spain, Greece) are the ones that have far lower levels of employment.
Maybe you should attempt to see if your knee-jerk reactions are supported by any evidence at all before you make them.
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January 30, 2004, 15:49
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#42
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Warlord
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by el freako
What a wonderful example of total ignorance, the number of people in the armed forces in europe is (and always has been) significantly more than the in the US.
Well that's also ignorance, as those states with the most generous welfare states (mainly scandinavian ones) actually employ a higher proportion of their working-age populations than the US does.
Whereas those states that have lacklustre welfare states (Spain, Greece) are the ones that have far lower levels of employment.
Maybe you should attempt to see if your knee-jerk reactions are supported by any evidence at all before you make them.
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the military capability and effectiveness of europe is so insanely far below that of the USA. ur being insanely disingenuous to even propose that europe's military is a match for america's. but then again, find one statistic and hammer it into a post and they make u right eh?
I'm not sure where u thot I was mentioning employment. I was pointing out if u stopped spending so much on paying ppl to not work u might have some leftover for a military.
oh and here's a stat. tho I should point it since u made me look up common knowledge I feel very slighted. and don't appreciate ur zealousness.
379 billion (2003) - United States
$48 billion - increase from Fiscal 2002 to 2003
$ 34.8 billion ( 2001 ) - United Kingdom
$ 29 billion ( 2000 ) - Russia
$ 27 billion ( 2000 ) - France
$ 23.1 billion ( 2001 ) - Germany
$ 18.7 billion ( 2000 ) - Saudi Arabia
$ 15.9 billion ( 2000 ) - India
$ 14.5 billion ( 2000 ) - China
$ 12.8 billion ( 2000 ) - South Korea
$ 12.8 billion ( 2000 ) - Taiwan
$ 7.5 billion ( 2000 ) - Iran
$ 3.3 billion ( 2000 ) - Pakistan
$ 1.8 billion ( 2000 ) - Syria
$ 1.4 billion ( 1999 ) - Iraq
$ 1.3 billion ( 2000 ) - North Korea
$ 1.3 billion ( 2000 ) - Yugoslavia
$ 1.2 billion ( 2000 ) - Libya
$ 425 million ( 2000) - Sudan
$ 31 million ( 2000 ) - Cuba
yah, we'd rock u.
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January 30, 2004, 15:52
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#43
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King
Local Time: 09:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
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Quote:
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Originally posted by St Leo
Quote:
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The main problem is the US has veto power in the UNSC. After all, Europe would need UN approval to do this, right?
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I am sure a NATO operation to take out the US could be arranged.
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We have a veto there too.
The Europeans would definitely be handicapped by their superiority.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
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January 30, 2004, 15:53
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#44
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Deity
Local Time: 13:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
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Quote:
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Originally posted by St Leo
Quote:
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The main problem is the US has veto power in the UNSC. After all, Europe would need UN approval to do this, right?
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I am sure a NATO operation to take out the US could be arranged.
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I know you're joking, but I'd like to point out that IIRC NATO is required in the treaty to be led by a US general
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
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January 30, 2004, 15:59
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#45
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Deity
Local Time: 13:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
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Quote:
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Originally posted by skywalker
I know you're joking, but I'd like to point out that IIRC NATO is required in the treaty to be led by a US general
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Attn Wesley Clark - disappointed at 13% in New Hampshire?? Trembling at going head to head with Kerry in Arizona?? Just disgusted generally (so to speak)??? Well at looks like theres an opportunity for YOU!!!
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
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January 30, 2004, 16:01
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#46
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Deity
Local Time: 13:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
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__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
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January 30, 2004, 16:22
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#47
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Prince
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Bristol, European Union
Posts: 573
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Quote:
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Originally posted by yavoon
the military capability and effectiveness of europe is so insanely far below that of the USA.
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No it's not, our offensive capability is way below yours but our defensive capability is more than enough to stop the US long enough for spending to rocket to WW1 or WW2 proportions (30% to 40% of GDP compared to 2% to 3% now) - and at those levels our greater supply of people of military age and our larger economy (GDP of the EU25 is 102% of the US) would make the contest pretty even.
Quote:
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Originally posted by yavoon
ur being insanely disingenuous to even propose that europe's military is a match for america's.
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It is you who are being disingenuous to assume that just because europe cannot deploy massive force anywhere in the world that we cannot adequately defend ourselves.
Quote:
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Originally posted by yavoon
I'm not sure where u thot I was mentioning employment. I was pointing out if u stopped spending so much on paying ppl to not work u might have some leftover for a military.
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How much more does the US spend on it's criminal justice system?
Could that be related to the fact that it's harder to get by when you're poor in the US than in the EU?
The US also spends the same share of it's GDP (around 6%) on Medicare and Medicaid as europe does on it's universal healthcare systems (with the upshot that private citizens spend 5% less of GDP on private healthcare)
Quote:
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Originally posted by yavoon
oh and here's a stat..
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well to quote you back:
Quote:
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Originally posted by yavoon
but then again, find one statistic and hammer it into a post and they make u right eh?
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But anyway, so you're saying that because you are spending more that makes you better defended?
Have you ever heard of value for money?
We get far better value for money on defence here in europe (but we do get worse value for attack )
Europe could not engage in an aggressive war with the US unless it changed it's military - but why do we need to?, if there was ever any problem that needed the 'world community' to deal with it then the US would do so in it's own self-interest - why shouldn't we freeload on the US now just as the US freeloaded on the UK in the 19th century?
But we could easily hold off the current US military (which is having trouble engaging in the occupation of 1.5 countries) untill we built a military to match yours - remember it only took the US 6 years to do just that.
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January 30, 2004, 16:23
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#48
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Warlord
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by el freako
No it's not, our offensive capability is way below yours but our defensive capability is more than enough to stop the US long enough for spending to rocket to WW1 or WW2 proportions (30% to 40% of GDP compared to 2% to 3% now) - and at those levels our greater supply of people of military age and our larger economy (GDP of the EU25 is 102% of the US) would make the contest pretty even.
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read thread title more. self own less.
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January 30, 2004, 16:25
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#49
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Deity
Local Time: 13:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
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European technology - especially in aviation - is far inferior to US technology. I even remember reading that Europe may be as much as ten years behind (or more). AFAIK Europe doesn't have Stealth or precision-guided munitions (at least not in significant quantities).
(btw, I'm not sure whether or not all of that applies to Britain)
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
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January 30, 2004, 16:27
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#50
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Prince
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Bristol, European Union
Posts: 573
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You read the thread title.
If we decided to attack the US we would wait untill we had built a military capable of doing so. (which would take 20 years if we were leisurely about it, 10 if we were in a hurry and 5 if we were desperate).
You show the same understanding as one of my british countrymen in the 1880's who could say "Germany can never threaten us, they don't have a navy worth speaking of".
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January 30, 2004, 16:28
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#51
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King
Local Time: 18:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dilbert
Posts: 1,839
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We don't need them. We'd swat your planes out of the sky with harsh language.
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January 30, 2004, 16:30
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#52
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Deity
Local Time: 13:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
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Quote:
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Originally posted by el freako
You read the thread title.
If we decided to attack the US we would wait untill we had built a military capable of doing so. (which would take 20 years if we were leisurely about it, 10 if we were in a hurry and 5 if we were desperate).
You show the same understanding as one of my british countrymen in the 1880's who could say "Germany can never threaten us, they don't have a navy worth speaking of".
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Don't you think the US might notice this and also increase spending? I don't see any reason why we couldn't expand (or in the worst case maintain) the technology gap.
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
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January 30, 2004, 16:30
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#53
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Prince
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Bristol, European Union
Posts: 573
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Paul Hanson
We don't need them. We'd swat your planes out of the sky with harsh language.
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Also remember that it was the british defence research agency that worked out how to track the US's stealth aircraft.
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January 30, 2004, 16:32
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#54
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Emperor
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 3,521
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Paul Hanson
We don't need them. We'd swat your planes out of the sky with harsh language.
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Come back again and I shall taunt you some more.
__________________
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
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January 30, 2004, 16:32
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#55
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Prince
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Bristol, European Union
Posts: 573
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Quote:
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Originally posted by skywalker
Don't you think the US might notice this and also increase spending? I don't see any reason why we couldn't expand (or in the worst case maintain) the technology gap.
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Simple reason - money and resources.
Europe has as much of them as the US does, so if we decided to match your military we could - we could both spend each other into massive debt.
You've got to remember that if you make an enemy of europe then it won't be like facing the Soviet Union which had (at best) just under half your economic resources - you would be facing your equal in spending power and your superior in terms of manpower.
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January 30, 2004, 16:33
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#56
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Warlord
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by el freako
You read the thread title.
If we decided to attack the US we would wait untill we had built a military capable of doing so. (which would take 20 years if we were leisurely about it, 10 if we were in a hurry and 5 if we were desperate).
You show the same understanding as one of my british countrymen in the 1880's who could say "Germany can never threaten us, they don't have a navy worth speaking of".
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no. but hey if u wanna look at realistically.
first the EU 25 is united on NOTHING. much less willing to die side by side against america.
second that bullshit u were refering to about how u can copy america in WWII. we were in a massive depression, had high unemployment, empty factories. and half the country(women) were doing nothing! europe has none of those.
third there is no political sentiment for attacking nething possibly including small rodents in europe. the entire continent has no balls(britain is not on the continent).
and hell while we're adding #'s. the US economy props the world up. u think other ppl are going to let u take what drives their export driven economies and throw missiles at it so we can't afford their products nemore? wtf is that.
u are totally and completely incapable in all but the most fantasy of lands where # of ppl=possible military strength. of even matching the US's military prowess. and u r most certainly all but inept at ever hoping to launch an invasion against america.
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January 30, 2004, 16:36
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#57
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King
Local Time: 18:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Dilbert
Posts: 1,839
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You're taking this far too seriously.
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January 30, 2004, 16:36
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#58
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Warlord
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Paul Hanson
You're taking this far too seriously.
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RAR
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January 30, 2004, 16:39
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#59
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Emperor
Local Time: 12:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,213
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Paul Hanson
You're taking this far too seriously.
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Congrats to Dashi for an effective troll, got the panties of the zealots on both sides into a bundle.
__________________
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer
"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
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January 30, 2004, 16:41
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#60
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Deity
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Republic of Flanders
Posts: 10,747
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Quote:
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Originally posted by yavoon
379 billion (2003) - United States
$48 billion - increase from Fiscal 2002 to 2003
$ 34.8 billion ( 2001 ) - United Kingdom
$ 29 billion ( 2000 ) - Russia
$ 27 billion ( 2000 ) - France
$ 23.1 billion ( 2001 ) - Germany
$ 18.7 billion ( 2000 ) - Saudi Arabia
$ 15.9 billion ( 2000 ) - India
$ 14.5 billion ( 2000 ) - China
$ 12.8 billion ( 2000 ) - South Korea
$ 12.8 billion ( 2000 ) - Taiwan
$ 7.5 billion ( 2000 ) - Iran
$ 3.3 billion ( 2000 ) - Pakistan
$ 1.8 billion ( 2000 ) - Syria
$ 1.4 billion ( 1999 ) - Iraq
$ 1.3 billion ( 2000 ) - North Korea
$ 1.3 billion ( 2000 ) - Yugoslavia
$ 1.2 billion ( 2000 ) - Libya
$ 425 million ( 2000) - Sudan
$ 31 million ( 2000 ) - Cuba
yah, we'd rock u.
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If that aint a clear sign of the world getting civilised, I don't know what is.
How many mars missions and/or other fine things such as elimination of various diseases, hunger, dirty water, global pollution, etc would these combined numbers buy?
__________________
#There’s a city in my mind
Come along and take that ride
And it’s all right, baby, it’s all right #
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