Suggestion for a new Corruption model

[Sovereign]

I've been doing some thinking about corruption for Civ4. Not that I'm pissed or upset about Civ3's corruption system. In fact, its a novel idea but needs some refining.


I think a good corruption model would be:

High corruption levels for a civ during the Ancient Age.

Medium corruption levels for a civ on the same contient as its capitol, and high corruption levels on the civ's cities on other contients during the Middle Age.

Medium corruption levels for a civ, both on its home and other contients during the Industrial Age.

Low corruption for all of a civ's cities on the home contient (the one the capitol is located on), and medium corruption on other contients during the Modern Age.

The medium "other contient" corruption levels is reduced to low corruption when the civ starts researching Future Tech.


How about that?

[steven8r]

Sounds pretty good. It might even make some cities productive that wouldn't be otherwise.

But what would Alexman do without complex corruption formulae to occupy his time?!

Steven

[Switch]

That sounds pretty interesting, and could work quite well.

Originally posted by steven8r
But what would Alexman do without complex corruption formulae to occupy his time?!

Steven

Simply incorporate Sovereign's idea into a model similar to the current one, ie continents have biggest effect on corruption, but there is also rank and distance corruption (though their effects would be lessened). Since continents would play a big factor, there could be seperate formulae for home and abroad...maybe size of continent and shortes coast-to-coast distance could be included...this only means for laborious work...I mean fun, for Alexman.

[Xorbon]

Not a bad idea.



A variation would be to have specific techs reduce corruption instead of ages. Radio, Printing Press (and other communications-based techs), and certain social-based techs (like Labor Union) could be a few examples of corruption-reducing techs. Mapmaking, navigation, etc. could reduce corruption overseas.

[vmxa1]

Hav you used the 1.15 patch? It seems that corruption is not unbearable now and you have specialist to get some production in a corrupt city.

[Sovereign]

Vxma, do you mean C3C or vanilla C3?


Anyways, my reasoning behind my new corruption idea...

Ancient Age corruption reflects slow horseback messengers and many warlords feuding like in Ancient Greece like seen in the Hercules and Xena TV shows, as well as Ancient Rome.

Middle Ages corruption reflects improved communication, introduction of empire wide and local laws, magistrates, judges, the New World mentality, exploring new contients, etc.

Industrial Ages corruption would reflect nearly instanteous communication via radio, rudimentary electronics, phones, etc. But the introduction of gangs, mobsters, and general organized crime partially offsets this.

Modern Ages corruption would reflect computer records, instant communication, the internet, television, and mass media. People would be less likely to be corrupt as they are indoctrinated by the nation's media.

The corruption reduction bonuses from Future Tech would reflect several futuristic social technologies such as brainwashing, mind control, genetics, etc. to make people more obedient.


It would be pretty easy to code this into the game. I'm not sure if this can be modded by hacking C3 files, or if we can hope for this in C4.

[ErikM]

Originally posted by Sovereign
Medium corruption levels for a civ on the same contient as its capitol, and high corruption levels on the civ's cities on other contients during the Middle Age.

Spanish, Portugese, English, and Dutch got plenty of riches from their overseas colonies, though. Even without any Forbidden palace

FWIW, Europa Universalis corruption model is nearly perfect. It works something like this:

-10% to province income if there is no land connection to a nation's capitol. This is farther modified by a country's army/navy domestic policies (naval-minded countries get smaller penalty). In Civ it could be that Seafaring civs are exempt from this penalty.

-30% to province income if province is of a wrong (non-state) culture. In Civ it could be something like +5% corruption for every foreign national in the city. Gradually lowered over time as foreign citizens are assimilated.

-30% to province income for non-state religion provinces. No real equivalent in Civ, but in Civ there are "cultural groups" (european/mideterranean/etc) so maybe double above number for foreign citizens of a wrong cultural group.

-5% for each point of the "revolt risk". In Civ terms, it could be something like +5% corruption for each unhappy citizen.

And there could be something like blanket corruption level for government type, ie 25% for despotism, 15% for monarchy, 10% for republic, 5% for democracy. Commercial civs could get a bonus -5% to the overall government corruption level (numbers are of course approximate).

One could tweak different governments to allow for different corruption effects. Ie communism halves corruption penalty for foreign citizens but democracy has better assimilation chance; democracy generates more trade but it is harder to keep citizens happy etc.

And no bloody distance/rank corruption. I mean, what is it trying to model? There is no freaking relationship between corruption level and distance to the capitol (not to mention city rank) whatsoever... Actually, I bet there is more corruption in Washington than in Seattle and there is more corruption in Moscow than in Vladivostok.

Ditto cultural flips. They are just plain silly

[vmxa1]

"Vxma, do you mean C3C or vanilla C3?"

1.15 is for C3C.

[Sovereign]

whoa, a lot of mathematics, ErikM.

Thanks vxma. I have vanilla C3C, no patches. I guess I might get the patch, but as you know, I'm playing MOO2 like mad from the MOO2 forum.

[vmxa1]

Yes, I have been know to bounce back and forth. I just finished a Moo1 game this morning before firing up C3C.

I may swing over to a Moo2 break, since the game is at that despressing stage where the AI just keeps announcing the latest wonder someone built. Sid can be so degressing in the ancient age. I have my fourth camp up now, so I am not too worried about getting over run.

[Plotinus]

I'm not sure I like this idea, from a gameplay point of view. It seems to me that one of the main purposes of having corruption is to weaken the strategy of simply going for a mighty sprawling empire. If the effects of corruption diminished as the game progresses, then the strategy of creating such an empire would be so superior to any other that the game would become boring. That is how it was in Civ1 (when democracies had no corruption whatsoever).

In any case, the game does simulate the diminishing of corruption over time, by lessening its effects in the "later" governments.

Besides which, as I've said before, I like to imagine that "corruption" simulates other things than unscrupulous local governors or mafiosos (mafiosi?). It could also simulate varying degrees of self-government. So, in the real world, the British Commonwealth might be all part of the same civilisation (they share a head of state), but far-flung parts of it such as Australia and New Zealand are self-governed to such a degree that they are essentially separate countries, and Britain receives hardly any Commerce etc. from them.

Oh, and remember, everyone, we've had this before - it's spelled "capital"!

[Sovereign]

Hadn't thought of that, Plotinus.

However, if you have an empire or a huge nation like the USA, Russia, or China, high on-the-same-contient corruption can get annoying. In ancient ages, corruption was rampant due to many warlords, city-states, and multiple kingdoms sharing a common culture and nationality (like the Greeks and English) but in Modern Ages, civ's develop into nations with their own beliefs, perpsectives, and culture.

If cities are located on other continents, thats perfectly understandable to have high corruption. Thats why I stated in my model that even Modern Age civ's have medium corruption in cities on contients other than the one its capitol is on.

Does factories and science labs in Los Angeles, Silicon Valley, or cities in Alaska produce almost nothing? They produce just as efficiently as New York City or Boston or Baltimore.

Also, there *is* more corruption in Washington D.C. than these cities since Washington D.C. is where all the politicans live.

[Mr. President]

Re the initial post, I'd be for just about anything that makes things simple.

[Xorbon]

Personally, I don't care if corruption's simple to implement, with simple formulas, etc. I'd rather have a more complex, realistic system. As long as it works properly, and how it works is decently documented. And as long as it's simple for the players to work with.

I'm probably asking for too much though.

[Skanky Burns]

simple formulas = it's simple for the players to work with.

If you make the system complex, then the average player won't understand how it works, no matter how well documented it is. And besides, how often are these things documented anyway, let alone well?

[Sovereign]

As someone said earlier, sometimes Reality has to be sacrificed for good gameplay. But in this case, I think the gameplay will reflect reality, based on huge nations like Russia, China, India, and USA producing equally in all areas, even distant from the capitol, such as my examples stated above.

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
simple formulas = it's simple for the players to work with.

If you make the system complex, then the average player won't understand how it works, no matter how well documented it is. And besides, how often are these things documented anyway, let alone well?

I disagree. The only ones who would be affected with complex formulas, etc. would be the 'ultra-micromanagers', and those that enjoy dissecting every detail of the game, not the average player. Like I said, if the system is well-documented, there shouldn't be any problems.

(I'll probably have lots of people on Apolyton disagreeing with me since there seems to be a lot of those ultra-micromanagers here. )

[Sovereign]

heh Vxma.

I'm trying to craft a new corruption model that will appeal to the widest audience possible.

I guess I should become a game designer.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
simple formulas = it's simple for the players to work with.

If you make the system complex, then the average player won't understand how it works, no matter how well documented it is. And besides, how often are these things documented anyway, let alone well?

I disagree. The model is already simple, and can be explained in 2 lines. Sure the maths is more intricate, but that will always be the case.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Sovereign
heh Vxma.

I'm trying to craft a new corruption model that will appeal to the widest audience possible.

I guess I should become a game designer.

Good luck. Get rid of corruption, that would appeal to me, but probably not others.