Germans gone Wild!

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by Ned
Sir Ralph: More crap from modern deluded Germans. If you have been following my posts here for some time, I am one of the very few Americans who are truly sorry for what we did during WWII and would like for us to formally apologize to Germany.

Eh? What did I miss? What did we do to Germany that merits an apology?

[Ned]

Commie T., anti-Americanism is expected from communistis. But Germans are not communists because of us. They are behaving as if we were not doing them a favor by keeping them free post 1945.

As to your "NATO" comment, what are you talking about? Germany sided with France, I believe, to even support Turkey if Saddam attacked it. That, IMHO, is a legal breach of the alliance.

[Ned]

Originally posted by DataAeolus


Eh? What did I miss? What did we do to Germany that merits an apology?

Helped the Brits destroy Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden.

[Provost Harrison]

Yeah but they did us a favour in return: destroyed Coventry

[Nubclear]

They are behaving as if we were not doing them a favor by keeping them free post 1945.

Should they follow everything America says and does simply because of that?
A case could be made for America and France....

As to your "NATO" comment, what are you talking about? Germany sided with France, I believe, to even support Turkey if Saddam attacked it. That, IMHO, is a legal breach of the alliance.

Then throw them out I will tell you Russia would like to see nothing more than NATO collapse
And I'm talking about the war on terror, not the war against Iraq

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Ned
We asked for nothing in return until we were attacked on 9/11. We then asked for Germany's support. What did we get? We got a German election campaign based on anti-Americanism. Our president was bashed, not by the lunatic fringe of Germany, but by the German government itself!!!!!!! Then, when push came to shove at the UN, Germany is the leader (with France) of the opposition to the US.

Excuse me Ned, but you are a complete ignorant. Your country got support from both France and Germany after September eleventh, and we are still present and very active in both Afghanistan and Kosovo. What we didn't support, was your conquest in Iraq, which had absolutely nothing to do with your war on terrorism.

Such actions are not worthy of an ally, a friend or a country that owes us so much.

Apparently you don't want allies. Those are entitled to have their own opinion. Your present administration wants vassals, that's all. Go look for them elsewhere.

There is a saying, is there not, that no good deed goes unpunished. Well Germany has shown the truth of that statement -- in spades.

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by Ned


Helped the Brits destroy Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden.

Oh that. *shrug* I don't see why Americans should apologize. It's part of war, and you know what they say... war is hell. During World War I, warring countries focused on tactical victories resulting in bloody see-saw battles in which corpses just built up especially in the No Man's Land.

It was natural that war strategists evolved their military thinking toward achieving strategic goals. In order to avoid the see-saw type of war from happening, they went after the infrastructure responsible for keeping a country's war machine running. In other words, break civilians' willingness to fight and soon the state will give in.

What we have done for the Germans in the aftermath of the war have made up more than enough for what has happened during the war.

Like I said in other thread about NYC being nuked on Feb 2nd, innocents die in wars. If you're not willing to die for someone who claims to represent you, for his politics, do something about it.

[Tripledoc]

The Marshall Plan did very little for the German Economy.
Overall it made a lot of European nations dependent on spareparts for the machines the Americans brought over.

As for defending Europe against Communism this is a matter of contention. Did Europe want to be saved from Communism in the first place? Was it not initially the Americans who dropped the first nuclear devices, and forced USSR to follow suit. Was it not Kennedy who demanded a further expansion to the missile programme when America was already far ahead? Was it not America which placed medium distance nuclear missiles in Turkey threatening the Soviet oil supply, forcing Russia to respond in Cuba. Was it not so that the American army's maneuvres in 1984 were made with such deliberate realism that the Soviets believed that Reagan would launch an attack.
Capitalism was a perilous partner.

Regarding America supporting Germany for free, need I remind people that the stationing of US troops was financed by the Germans through socalled offset payments.
Need I explain that the war in Vietnam caused Nixon to abandon Bretton Woods, thereby forcing the price of oil causing a severe crisis in Europe.
Capitalism was an expensive partner.

Is it any wonder that the USSR held on to their territories for so long in order to prevent an attack from an aggressive American foreign policy.

After America was attacked Germany and other European countries pledged full support in the war against terrorism. Subsequently troops was sent to Afghanistan to install some semblance of order there.

Now with the institution of Guantanamo and the invasion of Iraq i am afraid that America has severely overstepped and entirely lost its sense of mission.

The Germans have seen such behavior before.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Excuse me Ned, but you are a complete ignorant. Your country got support from both France and Germany after September eleventh, and we are still present and very active in both Afghanistan and Kosovo. What we didn't support, was your conquest in Iraq, which had absolutely nothing to do with your war on terrorism.



Apparently you don't want allies. Those are entitled to have their own opinion. Your present administration wants vassals, that's all. Go look for them elsewhere.

That is the point, is it not? We and many other countries believed that Saddam was a part of the war on terror due to his WMD and alliance with terrorists. You may have disagreed or better did not agree that the evidence of linkage was sufficient, but true allies do not side with the enemy. If you had qualms about the sufficiency of the evidence, a simple abstention may have been tolerable.

Thus vassal talk is pure crap and you know it.

[Ecthy]

You know Ned, a lot has happened since the 30s...

[Nubclear]

but true allies do not side with the enemy

Does that mean America is not the defender of freedom anymore?
I mean, on numerous occasions it has sided with despotism.....

Thus vassal talk is pure crap and you know it.

Sorry Neddy, but when you demand a nation follow your will unquestioningly and get angry when it doesn't....your wanting a vassal

You know Ned, a lot has happened since the 30s...

Don't worry, he's just trolling. Just start counter-trolling and it'll be OK

[Ned]

Data, there are pacifists in the world who do not like war at all. There are others, like me, who do not agree that targeting civilians is justifiable for any reason -- except, perhaps, to keep the other side from targeting one's own civilians.

[Ecthy]

who's trolling? did anyone say anything?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
You know Ned, a lot has happened since the 30s...

Yes. But, was the law repealled? When?

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Ned
Data, there are pacifists in the world who do not like war at all. There are others, like me, who do not agree that targeting civilians is justifiable for any reason -- except, perhaps, to keep the other side from targeting one's own civilians.

That all originated from stray bombs hitting civilian targets, and then ***-for-tat, and then the rest is history...sad really.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


Should they follow everything America says and does simply because of that?
A case could be made for America and France....

We should have the right to call in our chips at least once. This is not the same as saying Germany is a vassal.

[Nubclear]

We should have the right to call in our chips at least once.

So America joined WW2 for selfish reasons? I mean, if America was completly selfless as you imply then there should be no "chips" to call in.
Wiggle out of this one

Plus....America already called in its chips with The war on terror. Sorry.

[Provost Harrison]

Call in your chips? Thanks to WWII you became the dominant superpower so don't pretend you have been completely selfless. Besides, it is outside of your or my lifetime, so no one owes you sh*t...

[Ecthy]

repealed? the state ceased to exist, new constitution, inhumane laws repealed!

[Monk]

Hi Ned,

I guess you're right that the good men and women who fought on our side in WWII deserve all the credit they can get. I'm not going to under-estimate the significance of Marshall aid and other initiatives and neither should anybody else. However you still owe an explanation of why it logically follows from this fact that later generations of Germans or anybody else should automatically approve of the decisions of the U.S government. A good deal of people, many of them non-Americans, might have saved Germany and its Lebensraum from nazism, but just because George W. Bush is their countryman doesn't mean he's entitled to my gratitude. That is being consistent, because if I subscribed to your view, I'd not only have to approve of the Americans but also begin hating the Germans and the Russians for the dangers they once posed to mankind.

It appears as though you're still sending the entire people of Germany to hell because of their narrowly elected government and the ingratefulness of some. I think your logical fallacy lies with the fact that you regard a country as you'd regard a person. Accepting that premise, it's only natural that doing a favour back in time should be returned with some favours today. The problem, however, is that you can't view the world like that. You can't go from "Hey, the gov't of Germany doesn't like us" to "Let's condemn the Germans in general".

Furthermore, I'm still especially curious as to how you're going to substantiate your claim that the Germans hate the U.S for liberating the country from the Nazis.

[Nubclear]

Monk: What is that thing in your avatar?!

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
If I walked up to you and yelled "KILL ME DAMNIT! ****ING KILL ME!" would that make killing me any less of a crime?

The basis of all law is that your rights end where another begin, if someone wants you to kill them, you are not violating their rights, and thus it is fine.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Ned
That is the point, is it not? We and many other countries believed that Saddam was a part of the war on terror due to his WMD and alliance with terrorists.

The evidence of both is still missing. Come on, it can't be hard to place some "evidence" somewhere in Iraq, after all the United States have the largest stockpile of such weapons worldwide.

You may have disagreed or better did not agree that the evidence of linkage was sufficient, but true allies do not side with the enemy.

Sided with the enemy by voting for the continuation of the weapon inspections, huh?

If you had qualms about the sufficiency of the evidence, a simple abstention may have been tolerable.

I agree, a good vassal would have done this.

Thus vassal talk is pure crap and you know it.

No.

Good night, and have a blast trolling.

[Ben Kenobi]

The basis of all law is that your rights end where another begin, if someone wants you to kill them, you are not violating their rights, and thus it is fine.

We would presume that someone asking to be killed is mentally unstable, thus their request should not be acknowledged. They need help, not an executioner.

[Monk]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Monk: What is that thing in your avatar?!

It's the exceptional Swedish actor Ernst-Hugo Jähregaard as viewed from the bottom of a toilet in the Danish mini-series "The Kingdom".

[oedo]

Originally posted by Ned
If you had qualms about the sufficiency of the evidence, a simple abstention may have been tolerable.

Ned.....
no one had any qualms because there were no evidences at all. what do you think was the WMD argument for? it was necessary because there were absolutely no links between Iraq and al Queda. and I am sure we told you so before the war....over and over again.
if Saddam had anything to do with 911, guess what would have happened. the whole world would have supported the USA. yes even France would have. just like in Afghanistan.

and I think 8 1/2 years is a proper punishment for man eating on demand.

[Monk]

Originally posted by Monk
...because if I subscribed to your view, I'd not only have to approve of the Americans but also begin hating the Germans and the Russians for the dangers they once posed to mankind.

Just to clarify that, it's not that I don't generally approve of the United States. It's just that my approval is based on other things than events dating back fifty years.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Monk
I'm not going to under-estimate the significance of Marshall aid and other initiatives and neither should anybody else.

Why perpetuate a lie? The Marshall help was blatant imperialism. The Wirtshcaftwunder in Germany had nothing to do with the Marshall aid. In fact the money (goods really) spent would have been used better if Great Britains debt was liquidated instead. Hoever this was not an option, becasue then Britain might have had the option of becoming the clearing house of European trade again.

It appears as though you're (NED) still sending the entire people of Germany to hell because of their narrowly elected government and the ingratefulness of some.

The vast majority of Germans opposed the war, as did the people of Spain, Italy, Poland, England and presumably other nations as well.
The American government is not even democratically elected.

[DinoDoc]

How did we get from talking about German canibals to Iraq? I don't see the connection.

[Monk]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How did we get from talking about German canibals to Iraq? I don't see the connection.

If I recall correctly, it was Tripledoc who accused Ned of hostility towards Europeans. Ned answered and here we are.