Who Are Fascists?

[Sava]

systematic body of concepts

private ownership of property, open markets... those sound like a systematic body of concepts to me. The fact that there are different derivations of capitalism don't discount the FACT that it is an ideology.

Che... here's a test... search yahoo for "capitalism ideology" and tell me what you find. m'kay? I'm seeing sites from universities which that describe capitalism as an ideology. Maybe in the CHE dictionary, capitalism isn't an ideology... but in the English language... in the Western world, CAPITALISM IS AN IDEOLOGY

[Bereta_Eder]

Fascism is a distinct ideology also known as far right. There are defining characteristics for it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
What about Turkey? Has there not been some fascist periods in Turkish history?

I would say no. Right-wing authoritiarianism, even genocidal right-wing authoritarianism, does not fascism make. In the case of Turkey, most of the essential requirements for fascism are missing: movment of the ruined middle class and lumpen proletariet, support of the capitalist class, industrialized society, etc.

Ecthilion.

Does capitalism not have an idea of man, a world picture, and a theory of cognition?

No, no, and no.

[Bereta_Eder]

I think capitalism does have a cosmotheory and a view of man. A very bleak one at that but it does.

[Shi Huangdi]

Sava: Chegitz is correct here. There are various ideologies that are supportive of capitalism, such as libertarianism, but it isn't an ideology.

[Bereta_Eder]

Namely that man is by nature greedy and self centered etc

[Ecthy]

paiktis says it, it has one

[Bereta_Eder]

I think capitalism is an ideology. It is a system of operating and viewing the world just as much as socialism is. In fact capitalism and liberalism and/or conservatism are practically identical when compared to socialism.

[Shi Huangdi]

I think the correct way to look at it would be:

Supporting Ideology -------> Economic System

Libertarianism --------> Capitalism

Communism ---------> Planned Economy

Similarly, "Planned Economy" is not an ideology

[Sava]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Sava: Chegitz is correct here. There are various ideologies that are supportive of capitalism, such as libertarianism, but it isn't an ideology.

then you are wrong too

[Sava]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Similarly, "Planned Economy" is not an ideology

it seems like you don't know what ideology means, too.

a systematic body of concepts...

a planned economy is a SYSTEMATIC BODY OF CONCEPTS...

sigh...

this is why I shouldn't be a teacher... I would get mad at the dumb kids who don't learn.

[Ecthy]

a planned economy has no idea of man, therefore is not an ideology.

shi's system is wrong tho.

[Bereta_Eder]

Behind each economic system there lies a fundamental view of man which differs frome achother (actually it's the compelte opposite) and economic systems are based on the way of viewing man.

For example, capitalism (liberalism, conservatism etc) claims that man is greedy and self centered by nature. Thus the economic model chosen is one of personal initiative, "harvesting" the greed etc

Communism in its foundations believes that man is by nature benevolent and helping, caring. The economic system which evolves from that theory of viewing man is one of collectivity, shared resources etc.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
a planned economy has no idea of man, therefore is not an ideology.

shi's system is wrong tho.

look at the other definitions

the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

you can now join the others on the small school bus

[Shi Huangdi]

Evolution has a systematic body of concepts(Natural Selection, Survival of the Fittest). Is that an ideology?

[JCG]

Fascist is usually used as an insult these days, not as an accurate political analysis (few people ever bother to do those).

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
At any rate, Spain did not remain fascist throughout Franco's rule if it was fascist in the begining.

Exactly. Franco basically dropped most of the outwardly "fascist" decorations of his regime, once the tide had clearly turned against the Italians and Nazis (and didn't have to appear "fascist" in order to maintain their "friendship")..

[Ben Kenobi]

Is communism an ideology?

Where is the "visionary theorizing?"

State will wither away? Seems he's a crackpot, not a visionary.

Where is the "systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture?"

Systematic? One could argue Marx just threw together some ideas.

Where is the "manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture?"

By this definition, anything I say would be an ideology.

Where is the "integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program?"

Clearly, if Communism is integrated, why is it so disintegrated in practice?

[Tripledoc]

Regarding Fascism in Turkey: I think it is correct that Turkey is not a Fascist state per se. However within the Turkish state there is a powerful Fascist organisation, commonly know as the Gray Wolves. They are employed by the state as assassins, agents provocateurs, and in certain military echelons. These are trained by the German intelligence and US advisors. Also many governors in the the Kurdish areas in Turkey are members of the Grey Wolves organisation.

The ideology of the Grey Wolves is racist and imperial. They believe in a Turkey from 'the Balkans to the Chinese Wall'. All citizens within must either assimilate into being Turks or be exterminated.

It is questionable if there has been a Fascist mobilization of the Turkish middle classes. However it is interesting to note the international nature of present day Fascism. In some ways the Turkish Fascist are really an extension of NATO.

Grey Wolves
http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/turkish_fascism.htm

The Contra-Guerrilla Force
http://www.ozgurluk.org/mhp/0061.html

[Sava]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Evolution has a systematic body of concepts(Natural Selection, Survival of the Fittest). Is that an ideology?

yes... so does christianity... and it is also an ideology...

[Cruddy]

Fascists - those who believe the maintenance of law and order requires violence at all times.

From fasces a latin word for a bundle of sticks used for corporal punishment.

[Shi Huangdi]

Ooh boy.....

Is Modern Physics an ideology then? It has a very systematic body of concepts(the different forces such as gravity, weak, electromagnetic, as well as momentum, conservation of matter, etc.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi


Ooh boy.....

Is Modern Physics an ideology then? It has a very systematic body of concepts(the different forces such as gravity, weak, electromagnetic, as well as momentum, conservation of matter, etc.

yes... you do know how to read right? you see the dictionary definition... EVERYTHING THAT FITS UNDER THAT DEFINITION IS PART OF IT.

[Shi Huangdi]

M-W gave a misleading (to you) definition. As Chegitz pointed out, an ideology implies a state of thinking about human life and culture.

As American Heritage Dictionary gives:

1) ideology. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture. 2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of...

Of course, the M-W defintion would have been sufficent for someone with enough common sense to realize what M-W was talking about.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
M-W gave a misleading (to you) definition. As Chegitz pointed out, an ideology implies a state of thinking about human life and culture.

As American Heritage Dictionary gives:



Of course, the M-W defintion would have been sufficent for someone with enough common sense to realize what M-W was talking about.

despite the broad definition, that doesn't change the fact that Capitalism IS and ideology... again... search yahoo using "capitalism ideology"... you will find more than enough university sources confirming the fact I have presented.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Namely that man is by nature greedy and self centered etc

Capitalism itself does not have this view. Various ideologies of capitalism have this view, but by no means all of them.

Sava has still failed to show how his definitions support his argument.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sava
search yahoo using "capitalism ideology"... you will find more than enough university sources confirming the fact I have presented.

That proove nothing. Using two different search terms together doesn't prove that one term is subsumed under the other. You really need to go back to college.

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


That proove nothing. Using two different search terms together doesn't prove that one term is subsumed under the other. You really need to go back to college.

Don't you love it how Sava is so quick to call others morons when he is so clearly the dumbest one in the group?

[Sava]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Capitalism itself does not have this view. Various ideologies of capitalism have this view, but by no means all of them.

paiktis's explanation is wrong, don't confuse it with mine..

Sava has still failed to show how his definitions support his argument.

to you perhaps... but I don't need to support my argument. There is no ARGUMENT. I'm stating a fact. You are denying the fact... that's not my problem.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital...as_an_ideology

Capitalism as an ideology
As with many common words, and most particularly ideologically laden words, "capitalism" has many meanings. There can be great confusion amongst these meanings, and readers must be careful of which meaning a writer intends in any particular usage.

"Capitalism" as a phenomenon (the system of the private ownership of capital goods) is certainly different from "capitalism" as an ideology (the philosophical advocacy of that system). Moreover, the precise ideology meant by "capitalism" in the latter sense differs: what a Marxist or Green may describe as capitalist ideology may seem thoroughly alien to what a classical liberal means by calling himself a capitalist, and vice versa.

Opponents of capitalism sometimes deny that these represent subtantially different things, or say they go hand-in-hand. This criticism is often founded upon the Marxist idea that ideology is largely a consequence of underlying economic realities -- or the simplification thereof which holds that people favor ideologies which justify their behavior or privilege.

Although it is arguable whether these meanings the word "capitalism" of the same kind are somehow "equivalent" under someone's subjective notion of equivalence, for the sake of not making a straw man argument when accusing someone else to be a proponent of capitalism, these different concepts must be clearly distinguished.

from www.capitalism.org

1. What is capitalism?
Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights. The term capitalism is used here in the broader philosophical political sense, and not in the narrower economic sense, i.e. a free-market.

che... PLEASE ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG and stop making a fool of yourself.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Capitalism itself does not have this view. Various ideologies of capitalism have this view, but by no means all of them.

Actually that's the very basis of capitalism. Unless we're using a different interpretation of the term.

[chequita guevara]

You're using a libertarian site to prove your argument? Right, they haven't completely rewritten words to suit their own agenda.

Wikipedia support me more than you.