Trespass issues

lard · February 2, 2004, 11:05

Is it just me or does the AI take absolutely NO notice of national borders at all and just trespass as much as it wants?

The only way I've come up with avoiding this is to set up a (sometimes huge) line of units on my borders which prevents the AI getting in. As soon as the line is broken for some reason, sometimes 10s sometimes 100s of AI units start piling through the gap. It's not always settlers trying to fill gaps in my civ and I've told them to get out of my territory but they just plain ignore me. Then I just have to watch for ships, which also ignore borders :/

The last game of C3C I played, I had a huge line of cavalry sweeping out an empty land where the byzantines had completely razed the carthaginian empire gently forcing them back into their own borders. Presumably the AI has a maximum number of cities as he systematically razed every city he conquered. Anyway, I had to give up on the game as when rubber appeared, there were three resources (on a huge map) and they were all in the middle of the AI's empire. But that's another story

Brundlefly · February 2, 2004, 11:08

If you sit between AI and any land that can be settled on, the AI will ignore your borders and try to settle on that land. Once you settle all that land or place units covering all that land, they will stop ignoring your borders.

lard · February 2, 2004, 11:14

So, if I dont want to put a city on a massive desert or mountain range, to stop the AI sending loads of settlers and units over my borders I need to fortify my own units on it?

vmxa1 · February 2, 2004, 12:54

Normally it has been my experience that the AI will not cross your borders if you are percieved as strong. Well almost, it will once it runs out of places to plop a city and it knows that land is available if it cross you land.

I often will get my borders up to cut of access to open land behind me and the AI will stay away for a long time. Eventually it will try run for the land, it has no choice.

Then it comes down to how strong I am compared to them and how scares land is at that time.

Basically when I used to have that issue it was becasue I was not building enough units. Check the F3 screen and see what it says.

:) Smiley · February 2, 2004, 21:51

Usually when 10s or 100s of AI units enter your borders, it's time to declare war and have a nuke handy.

vmxa1 · February 2, 2004, 22:14

If I have a someone civ on my land mass, they are not going to get to have 100's of units. If they do I have a big problem.

They are not going to bring 100's of units across the water, so I am not going to face that issue on my homeland. If I invaded, that is another story.

Cookie Monster · February 3, 2004, 09:32

Something else that's aggravating is when you are sandwiched between two warring ai civs. They usually fight their battles on your soil! Their units clog your road network preventing you from moving workers around easier.

Maybe there should be a feature that if you fight a war on a neutral parties land you automatically go to war with the neutral.

lard · February 3, 2004, 10:14

Yes! The whole thing is aggravating and as far as I can see the only sure way of stopping it is to line your borders with units.

ROP agreements are a waste of time, no?

Kuciwalker · February 3, 2004, 11:28

I ALWAYS fortify units across an isthmus (or any thin tract of land).

I have a bit of sympathy for the AI, because sometimes I sign RoP's with them simply to screw them over by messing with their road network. I will sometimes fortify eight units outside their capital (and other core cities), too

lard · February 3, 2004, 11:48

Well yeah, if they get a few units wandering around in your territory they invariably interfere with your road network and sometimes camp in strategically useful squares. Then they declare war on you for little to no reason and those units become a serious problem. I guess it's only fair to do the same thing back to them when you get a ROP. Perhaps a rule change allowing allied units to occupy the same squares would be of benefit. Perhaps it would just be a PITA!

Maybe I should start playing on the map type (forgot the name) with lots of thin tracts of land as opposed to the vast tracts of land (sic) that I have been doing.

:) Smiley · February 3, 2004, 13:30

Archipelago map gives you more isthmus, as do smaller maps.

Brundlefly · February 3, 2004, 14:49

Quote:

Originally posted by

Smiley
Archipelago map gives you more isthmus, as do smaller maps.

I think the plural of isthmus is 'isthmii'.

(ACS is the only place in the entire world where you will need that info)

Cookie Monster · February 4, 2004, 11:25

Quote:

Originally posted by bfg9000

I think the plural of isthmus is 'isthmii'.

(ACS is the only place in the entire world where you will need that info)

So true!!!

anarchie · February 4, 2004, 13:00

isthmus: Narrow part of the breast of a fish that projects forward between the gill chambers.

And uh, only one i. 'isthmi'. Teach thyself. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...try%3D%2325085

Mad Bomber · February 5, 2004, 05:13

C3C has added a powerful new tool to aid in border defense. It is called the barricade and I find it indespensible in securing my borders and protecting valuable resources.

In both Vanilla CIV 3 and PTW fortresses could be built to protect territory, but their was a drawback, the AI would simply ignored the fortresses if held and fast movers simply moved past them. Built properly a system of barricades prevents this.

The main drawback of a Barricade system is that it is expensive in shields and worker turns to erect (remember all barricades should be garrisoned by a good defender, otherwise its a liability) , however once in place it can not only avoid the ocasional border infraction, but also to avoid a war you would not otherwise be prepared for.

A proper barricade system would look similar to this:

------ = Border
B=Baricade

______
B-B-B-B
-B-B-B-

lard · February 5, 2004, 06:48

So what you're saying is that you can put half as many defensive units on a border when you put them in barricades because you can leave gaps that the enemy AI won't/can't go through as he'll get shot up?

Surely this wont stop a peaceful AI wandering around your territory though...

justjake73 · February 5, 2004, 08:49

If the only way from A to B (with B being open land) is through your territory, even a peaceful AI will try to get there through your land. If you are more powerful then them, have a little fun with "The Incredible Rubber Settler Trick." Wait until he's somewhat within your territory, then threaten war. He'll jump back to his nearest city

Mad Bomber · February 5, 2004, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by lard
So what you're saying is that you can put half as many defensive units on a border when you put them in barricades because you can leave gaps that the enemy AI won't/can't go through as he'll get shot up?

Surely this wont stop a peaceful AI wandering around your territory though...

If built properly they CAN'T move through the land (Barricades have a proper ZOC in C3C but are only effective if used in tandem), in addition it invalidates the sneak attack (unless you have a town right on the border) as they would have to reduce the barricades before assaulting the town. The AI doesn't send settler teams around a border with a system of barricades set up (unless you have a ROP in place, then its your own fault) because it knows it will not be able to get through the line.

Cookie Monster · February 5, 2004, 12:18

But don't you have to build forts first and then barricades? Can barricades be built on their own without the fortress?

lard · February 6, 2004, 13:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

If built properly they CAN'T move through the land (Barricades have a proper ZOC in C3C but are only effective if used in tandem), in addition it invalidates the sneak attack (unless you have a town right on the border) as they would have to reduce the barricades before assaulting the town. The AI doesn't send settler teams around a border with a system of barricades set up (unless you have a ROP in place, then its your own fault) because it knows it will not be able to get through the line.

So are you saying that enemy units can't go from a space in a ZOC to another space in a ZOC? All they can do if they move into a ZOC space is move back to where they came from or to another non-ZOC space.

If so that's great news and I will start using barricades immediately. If not then it's better than nothing I suppose!

OT: To me, a fortress is something you build AFTER a barricade. The former is a permanent position of fortification, the latter is a temporary structure built to achieve a short term goal. Just semantics I suppose

Mad Bomber · February 7, 2004, 14:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Cookie Monster
But don't you have to build forts first and then barricades? Can barricades be built on their own without the fortress?

Yes, you do have to build the fort first, as I said the Barricade system if built will require a major commitment in garrison units as well as worker turns

Mad Bomber · February 7, 2004, 14:38

Quote:

Originally posted by lard

So are you saying that enemy units can't go from a space in a ZOC to another space in a ZOC? All they can do if they move into a ZOC space is move back to where they came from or to another non-ZOC space.

If so that's great news and I will start using barricades immediately. If not then it's better than nothing I suppose!

OT: To me, a fortress is something you build AFTER a barricade. The former is a permanent position of fortification, the latter is a temporary structure built to achieve a short term goal. Just semantics I suppose

Correct, a unit can move into a ZOC but can only move to a tile that is not ZOC controlled (hence the requirement to build barricades in tandem)

As for the Barricade- Fort issue it is a lesson in Semantics, but I would have used the Barricade as the lesser of the two if I had been in on the design of the game. They could have just as easily used Fort/Fortress, Trench/Fort or half a dozen others.

I have forgotten to mention one thing. If you build forts and barricades along your borders, it tends to piss off the AI's who can't send units through your land and could cause a war if there is a need to send major units through your territory (like a war on the other side of the continent)

DrSpike · February 8, 2004, 07:38

If you can block, then block. If you have less units and can't block then just swear and take it. If you fancy a little war wait until they are in the middle of your lands on a grassland square or equivalent and introduce them to Mr massacre.

lard · February 9, 2004, 09:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

I have forgotten to mention one thing. If you build forts and barricades along your borders, it tends to piss off the AI's who can't send units through your land and could cause a war if there is a need to send major units through your territory (like a war on the other side of the continent)

Well, the AI using your territory as a corridor is something that happens far too often. If they want to get to some emeny on the other side of a continent then they can try and get a ROP off me (not going to happen!), or use boats. If they declare war then tough! Hopefully by then I'll have a nice line of fortified barricades in their way

Mad Bomber · February 9, 2004, 16:29

Quote:

Originally posted by lard

Well, the AI using your territory as a corridor is something that happens far too often. If they want to get to some emeny on the other side of a continent then they can try and get a ROP off me (not going to happen!), or use boats. If they declare war then tough! Hopefully by then I'll have a nice line of fortified barricades in their way

Exactly, but the AI tendency to declare war when constructing barricades is prevelent enough that it needed to be mentioned.

ZargonX · February 9, 2004, 16:41

Quote:

Exactly, but the AI tendency to declare war when constructing barricades is prevelent enough that it needed to be mentioned.

Is this a proven tendancy? In my most recent game, I decided to try a full fortress-barricade line blocking my lands. The turn before I would finish the final piece, the AI on the other side attacked me out of the blue, pouring through the gap. Curious, I reloaded a few turns earlier and tried everything to get the relationship improved, or change the RNG values. Still, every time that final piece was about to be completed, the AI would go to war. Hard coded?

Mad Bomber · February 9, 2004, 16:56

Quote:

Originally posted by ZargonX

Is this a proven tendancy? In my most recent game, I decided to try a full fortress-barricade line blocking my lands. The turn before I would finish the final piece, the AI on the other side attacked me out of the blue, pouring through the gap. Curious, I reloaded a few turns earlier and tried everything to get the relationship improved, or change the RNG values. Still, every time that final piece was about to be completed, the AI would go to war. Hard coded?

I don't know if it is hardcoded but it occurs often enough that you need to be aware of this before employing this tactic. (BTW you should have a defender or two at all of the sites where you are constructing Fortresses and barricades (The AI loathes attacking fortified positions). In addition I employ a mobile reserve to counterattack any breach in the defensive line. Also, if you can, build forts/barricades on defensive terrain.

anteos · February 11, 2004, 09:19

could you guys post some screenshots of the barricades in action. It would be interesting to see.

thanks

realpolitic · February 14, 2004, 14:54

If I've declared war on a country while they were inside my borders, they're less likely to do it again. I often prefer to start a war this way, it can lead to less losses/unit destroyed than starting off by attacking cities only.

Mad Bomber · February 14, 2004, 16:13

Quote:

Originally posted by anteos
could you guys post some screenshots of the barricades in action. It would be interesting to see.

thanks

Trying too but everytime I try to post a screenie it says that my file size is too large and gives the maximum file size as 800 x 0 pixels! Also I can't find the upload feature.

edit: Anyone who is interested, send me a PM and I will e-mail you some sceenshots of some uses of barricades.