Russia: No CFE treaty for you!

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras

Serb, one reader commmented the book you linked
quote:
"<...>The only draw back of this great account is that it is written in such a pro-Soviet manner as to almost make the reader believe that Werth is an apologist for the crimes of the Soviets during the entire conflict, especially the invasion of Germany."

And? He still ranked this book by 5 out of 5 possible stars. (Btw, you forget about half of the page of his comment where he admire this book).
This Werth's work considered classic. As for pro-Soviet attitude, I guess he, as an eyewitness of events, had his own reasons to be pro-Soviet. Btw, this book wasn't widespread in USSR and cosidered VERY rare, iirc it was printed only once in 60's, with total number of copies about several thousands. I guess Soviet censorship didn't consider it so pro-Soviet as this guy might think.

It's classic book, highly recomended.

[Serb]

Originally posted by David Floyd
This ignores the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which set this invasion up to begin with. The M-R Pact gave the Soviets "rights" to the eastern 77,000 square miles of Poland, as well as putting the Baltic states in the USSR's "sphere of influence" (otherwise known as free reign to take them over). This not being enough for the Soviets, they turned around and invaded Finland in 1940, a war which produced German and Swedish volunteers to come to the defense of Finland.

Remind me when Soviet forces crossed the border of Poland? Where was intensive fighting? How many Polish armies Red Army defeated?
When Soviets crossed the border, Poland was already a toast. Soviet moved and pick-up lands that Poles took from USSR in 20's.

I guess that France and the UK didn't want to go around starting wars and invading people. Obviously the Soviets had no such compunction. Except oh wait, that's right, the Soviets actually signed a military pact with Germany for the purpose of foreign aggression. It seems that if you think France and the UK "encouraged" Germany, then the Soviets did too - to a much worse degree.

The question is who started it first. Untill the last moment USSR called for anti-Hitler coalition. UK and France turned away from USSR and keep feeding Hitler with lands, making him stronger, in exchange for promises to do not attack them. WTH do you think Munchen was? Btw, Czhes were allies of France and France had to protect them.

I don't recall any Franco-German military alliances.

I don't recall any Russo-German alliances. I recall Russian-German non-agression pact. Also I recall alike British-German and French-German agreements.

So by that argument, the Soviet Union participated in the division of Poland, thus making Germany stronger as well. Right? Your own argument, after all...

Right.
But in 1939 Hitler was already strong enough, all previous atempts of USSR to do something about growing German threat, was denied by UK&France, so in 1939 SU had to think about their own security. My argument was about Poland, who participated in division of Czechoslovakia on pair with Hitler, thus making him stronger. I meant that Poland is not so innocent as it try to seem and share its own part of responsibility for making Hitler strong enough to start WW2.

Yeah, and just think, without the Western Front and without Lend-Lease, both made possible primarily by the US and Britain, all of that suffering would have been for nothing. Well, nothing, unless you were a German, in which case you'd probably be settling in a large new estate in the Ukraine.

Troll - "Who won WW2?", part 348. (c) David Floyd.

So, it's your right to take Polish land in compensation for German aggression, when, in 1939, you greatly contributed to Germany invading Poland in the first place?

Oh my...
Konigsberg wasn't a Polish land. It was part of the Germany, a country who invaded Soviet Union in 1941, but lost the war, and lost this part of its territory, because of defeat in this war.
Why this land should have been given to Poland? It's not Poland who defeated Germany. Poland has no right to claim anything from Germany. But I doubt a single Pole understand this. Poland, perhaps is the only country on Earth who had "claims" to all its neighbours. Poland should be from Arkhangelsk to Astrakhan on east, and from Berlin to Stambul on west, right Heresson?

And by that argument, the US should simply seize a chunk of every country in Europe, including the Soviet Union.

And they did (except USSR of course).
Does NATO ring the bell?

Really? So winning a war is the only justification for owning land? Actually, come to think of it, the last time Poland and the Soviet Union directly fought, in the early 1920s, didn't Poland WIN?

Poland attacked when USSR was young and weak, won, and grab part of its territory. They owned it for a short period, then they became weak, SU attacked and returned this territory (hardly I can say SU had won war, because there wasn't much fighting).

Unless you count, of course, the Soviet invasion in 1939. But that wasn't a real war, right? Because Poland didn't exist, right?
So either, the last time the Soviets and Poles fought, Poland won, or the last time they fought, the Soviets had invaded. Oh wait, that invasion bit is true for both times, isn't it?

Blah...blah...blah...
Don't you understand the difference?
They attacked, won, captured. SU attacked, won, returned.
Next question please.

Speaking of price, don't you owe the US a few billion in Lend Lease? We'll take that in adjusted 1945 dollars, please.

Don't you owe us millions of lives of our soldiers who died fighting our common enemy, while you were hidding your arses beyond the ocean?

No, just the mighty Polish kingdom that tossed out the Soviets the last time they fought one-on-one. Hmmmm...

Poor troll again. This "mighty" Polish kingdom was destroyed by Russian kingdom. Poland was part of Russia, (for quite a while ), not the other way around.

So? You lost yours vs. Poland in 1922.

When we lost this war, we lost this territory as well. Poland lost war to Germany in 1939 and had no right to demand anything. It's not normal when loosers demand anything from victors. USSR was victor of war vs. Germany, not Poland. USSR as victor had right to demand something from agressor. Poland didn't win this war, and it has no right to demand anything from anyone, esp. from country who saved Poland from complete extermination.

Russia better pony up some cash to the good ole US of A in that case.

As typical Yankee you convert anything in $$$. You'll never understand what I meant by "price".

Credit where due, please. Without the US, the Soviets would NOT have won. Stalemate at best would have resulted.

"Importance of lend-lease", part 527, (c) David Floyd.
Next troll please.

Obviously so, that's what happens when you move in by the thousands.

This territory belongs to Russia and populated by Russians. Everyone who want it, must attack Russia. It's the only way to get, but we will fight for it.
Case is closed.

[Harovan]

Good god, Serb, calm down, nobody wants your Kaliningrad anymore. The Soviets ran it down from a city of culture and science (home of Immanuel Kant and Leonhard Euler, for instance) into a shithole with a naval base as biggest attraction anyway. The German population has been forcably expelled long ago (along with my father's family too), the refugees are integrated in other places, Germany has officially given it up and aside of some reactionary nutjobs every now and then nobody wastes a single thought on it anymore. And Heressons and Saras' claims based on centuries old and pretty moot agreements are so ridiculous, that I wouldn't even respond if I were you.

[Serb]

I would understand claims of Germany, not that I would support them, but at least understand. But, what really drive me made is Polish and Lithuanian claims. How do you think I should react? My grandfather fought in battle for Konigsberg and was heavily wounded there. If not this injury, more probably he would still be alive. But he was still luky - many of his comrades died during this battle. For me it is personal. And I can't just seat and listen Polish or Lithuanian statements "you should return it to us, you have no right to own it".

But you right, I need to calm down, I mean I need some beer.

Btw, kakaya u vas tam pogoda seichas?

[Harovan]

hujovaja. holodno (dlja nas) i po utram tuman.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Serb
How do you think I should react?

I wouldn't react at all. I would sit and laugh my ass off.

[Serb]

Moi otez uletel v Germaniyu paru dnei nazad. Kogda uletal, zdes moroz byl pod -30. Ondako on ne po pogode odelsya.

[Harovan]

emu budet zharko, u nas tolko chut-chut nizhe nulja, snega net.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


I wouldn't react at all. I would sit and laugh my ass off.

Actually I did This Heresson's bs was esp. funny:
"Also, in the 1657 Welawa-Bydgoszcz treaty, it was said that if Hohenzollerns would cease to rule Prussia, it should be entirelly incorporated into Poland."

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
emu budet zharko, u nas tolko chut-chut nizhe nulja, snega net.

"Horosho tam, gde nas net".
-russkaiya pogovorka.
"Huyinya, perezemuem"
- eshe odna pogovorka.
Ya v tom smysle, chto on v vashih krayah ne v pervyi raz, kak-nibud oklimatiziruetsya.

Pivo is the best way to calm down.

P.S. Ty izvinyai esli, chto. Ya tut "slegka" razoshelsya.

Respect.

[Saras]

Sir Ralph, for the record, I did not claim it should belong to Lithuania. I raised a question of Russian legitimacy there. That is far from claiming it for Lithuania.

In fact, I don't really know what should be done with it. Perhaps a plebiscite to sort of as the people who actually live there what they would want to do with it? Don't know.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb

Remind me when Soviet forces crossed the border of Poland? Where was intensive fighting? How many Polish armies Red Army defeated?
When Soviets crossed the border, Poland was already a toast. Soviet moved and pick-up lands that Poles took from USSR in 20's.

That's pretty cynical. When it comes to the fights, again I remind You Polish gouverment forbade fight against Soviets, which didn't stop Soviets from slaughtering some people on their way

I don't recall any Russo-German alliances. I recall Russian-German non-agression pact. Also I recall alike British-German and French-German agreements.

The difference was that in this "non-agression" pact, You divided everything in between You two into your sphares of influence

Poland, who participated in division of Czechoslovakia on pair with Hitler, thus making him stronger. I meant that Poland is not so innocent as it try to seem and share its own part of responsibility for making Hitler strong enough to start WW2.

The case is much more complicated. Poland send a ultimatum to Prague before Muenchen. That's one. Secondly, after Czehoslovakia was taken by Germans, a Czech legion was being created in Poland

Konigsberg wasn't a Polish land. It was part of the Germany, a country who invaded Soviet Union in 1941, but lost the war, and lost this part of its territory, because of defeat in this war.

1 - that post wasn't very intelligent. This guy ment the lands Poland lost to USSR, not to Russian republic particurarly.

2 - land is no war trophy. You need to have some historical or ethnical basis for your claims, it's not enough to just conquer it.

Why this land should have been given to Poland? It's not Poland who defeated Germany.

Poland was theoretically on the winning side. Also, it lost lands to USSR and was supposed to get recompensation on German side.

only country on Earth who had "claims" to all its neighbours.

Nope, that country is Russia.
When it comes to Poland, it was hard after Iww not to have claims towards neighbours, as Poland was divided in between them. It's like saying JKurds are extremly agressive nation, because they have pretensions toward Turkish, Iraqi, Iranian and Syrian territory at one time. It's just dumb. Also, we had very good relations with Latvia and Romania. Unlike USSR.

Poland attacked when USSR was young and weak, won, and grab part of its territory. They owned it for a short period, then they became weak, SU attacked and returned this territory (hardly I can say SU had won war, because there wasn't much fighting).

Poland was weak and young as well, and it was USSR who started the fighting. The peace treaty was signed, and USSR had no reasons to breake it.

Don't you owe us millions of lives of our soldiers who died fighting our common enemy, while you were hidding your arses beyond the ocean?

Millions of Soviet soldiers died only thanks to Soviet ignorance and idiotism

When we lost this war, we lost this territory as well. Poland lost war to Germany in 1939 and had no right to demand anything. It's not normal when loosers demand anything from victors. USSR was victor of war vs. Germany, not Poland. USSR as victor had right to demand something from agressor. Poland didn't win this war, and it has no right to demand anything from anyone, esp. from country who saved Poland from complete extermination.

Exterminating it partly on its own. Additionally, I would like to remind You Poland never surrendered to Germany, and Polish armies were fighting against Germany both on western and eastern front, also hand to hand with Soviets.

Oh, and that your grandpa died fighting near Krolewiec doesn't mean Russia can claim it. Polish soldiers were dieing fighting in Norway, Italy, Belgium, France, Libya, Ukraine, Byelorus, Germany itself etc, and we do not claim these lands.

Originally posted by Serb


Actually I did This Heresson's bs was esp. funny:
"Also, in the 1657 Welawa-Bydgoszcz treaty, it was said that if Hohenzollerns would cease to rule Prussia, it should be entirelly incorporated into Poland."

It's true, not bs, You ignorant

26,6 MILLIONS people dead

It was the official propaganda, and the number is about entire USSR, not Russia.

No other country, suffered so enormous material damge, no other country, was so pillaged, so damged, EVER.

Poland was, especially after the second robbery - by Soviet liberators. I'd like to remind You entire Poland, and only a part of SU, was under occupation.

WE"VE WON THIS WAR AND IT'S QUITE NORMAL THAT VICTORIOUS SIDE DIDN'T LOST ANY LAND IN WAR IT WON.

You didn't win it alone. Not USSR alone, not Russia alone. Why the hell Uzbekhistan or Kazakhstan didn't receive something too?

Your country didn't paid such price for victory as Russia paid.

Really? Poland before the war - 35mln people,
Poland after the war - 25 mln people. 10 mln citizens lost, including over 6mln killed, also by Soviets.

And since Poland was part of Russian empire long time ago, it still should be part of Russia today, right?

You're being silly, Serb

My God, are You a fanatic.

[Ned]

H, is it true that the USSR killed 6 million Poles?

[Heresson]

No. I don't know why are You asking. Who told You that?
Several hungred thousands, up to a million the most

[Ned]

This statement by you in the immediately preceding post:

"Really? Poland before the war - 35mln people,
Poland after the war - 25 mln people. 10 mln citizens lost, including over 6mln killed, also by Soviets."

[Heresson]

I thought You'd answer like that, but it's not the right understanding of what I have written. Perhaps it's my mistake, if so, sorry. What I have written was that after the war, Poland was reduced by 10 mln citizens, including over 6mln killed, and of those 6mln some were killed by Soviets.

[Barinthus]

A bit off but somewhat related.

I have a friend whose father was a child during World War II in Romania.

He told me that Romanians preferred German occupation compared to the Soviet 'liberation.' According to him, aside from their racial ideology Germans were very respectful. While they took things they needed they often make an effort to pay compensation in exchange. One story he told was about how Germans took over a school to use as barracks. When they left, Romanians found the school in a much better condition - it has been repaired and there was even a small flower garden outside.

On the other hand, when Soviets came in and liberated them, they just looted the place and took whatever they wanted without reburisments.

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by DataAeolus

On the other hand, when Soviets came in and liberated them, they just looted the place and took whatever they wanted without reburisments.

That might have something to do with Romania being an ally of Germany and participating in the invasion of the SU. So the Soviets would have had the experience of what 3 years of brutal war on their own territory, against among others the Romanians, before entering Romania. In that light the preference is not really surprising.

[Az]

First of all, if SU hadn't invaded Poland, Germany wouldn't have invaded it.

Yes, because the Nazis were offended and surprised by the soviet invasion of Poland.

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by Kitschum


That might have something to do with Romania being an ally of Germany and participating in the invasion of the SU. So the Soviets would have had the experience of what 3 years of brutal war on their own territory, against among others the Romanians, before entering Romania. In that light the preference is not really surprising.

Perhaps... but a liberation should be just that, not a looting fest.

[Kitschum]

Originally posted by DataAeolus


Perhaps... but a liberation should be just that, not a looting fest.

Sure, the Soviets behaved unforgivably in many places in Eastern Europe, but the situations are not comparable. Of course the Romanian civilian population would prefer the "occupation" of their allies to that of their (former) enemies after a long war.

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by Kitschum


Sure, the Soviets behaved unforgivably in many places in Eastern Europe, but the situations are not comparable. Of course the Romanian civilian population would prefer the "occupation" of their allies to that of their (former) enemies after a long war.

Ah well. To be fair, the Soviets were not the only one who behaved this way. No nation in history has a clean conscience except perhaps for the Swiss

[Patroklos]

Man Serb, I really need to call your insane asylum because internet access to mentally handicaped people is obviously not working in your case.

Soviet WWII apologist. It is pathetic. *****ing at people for all the injustices done to Russia (manufatured usually, but you are right by mistake sometimes) and then using the same logic you accuse the defilers applied to you for your own actions.

Your defensivness betrays your evil intent.

[Saras]

Patty, you should learn more about the Russian national psyche. It was changed immensely by WWII. A lot what he posted should be interpreted with that in mind. Not that it's a blanket excuse for some of the more obvious lunacy.

Serb, I'm actually going to Ryazan tomorrow. That's most likely the closest I'll ever be to your permafrozen city . I hear Ryazan is nice, 11th century monastery and all.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson


That's pretty cynical. When it comes to the fights, again I remind You Polish gouverment forbade fight against Soviets, which didn't stop Soviets from slaughtering some people on their way

Polish government escaped to Romania at Sep. 17. Only after that at the same day (Sept. 17) Soviet troops entered Western Ukrain and Western Beylorussia. That's what I was talking about. When Soviets entered- your government was already gone, and Poland was already a toast.

The difference was that in this "non-agression" pact, You divided everything in between You two into your sphares of influence

The same with Franco-German and British-German agreements. They claim that whole Southern Europe should be in sphere of influence of Germany and that France had no interests in Southern Europe. The only difference that Soviets actually used the situation to benefit something for themselves, while Brits and French just let Hitler do everything he wanted.

The case is much more complicated. Poland send a ultimatum to Prague before Muenchen. That's one. Secondly, after Czehoslovakia was taken by Germans, a Czech legion was being created in Poland

Oh yeah, sure. When Poland playing games with nazi and participate in division of Czechoslovakia on pair with Hitler- it's pretty complicated. But when Soviets sign a tactical treaty with Hitler to return their lands from their No1 enemy- Poland, it's quite simple- Soviets are f*ckers.

1 - that post wasn't very intelligent. This guy ment the lands Poland lost to USSR, not to Russian republic particurarly.

Blaim Floyd and American education system then.

2 - land is no war trophy. You need to have some historical or ethnical basis for your claims, it's not enough to just conquer it.

Grow-up, boy. Germany attacked USSR, brought enormous disasters to our contry, but lost this war. And you think Soviets as victors of this war, had no right demand anything from defeated agressors?
Grow-up.

As for 1939, we didn't conquered Western Ukraine and Western Beylorussia, we re-conquered it. Those lands belonged to Ukraine and Beylorussia and were populated mostly by Ukranians and Beylorussians.

Poland was theoretically on the winning side. Also, it lost lands to USSR and was supposed to get recompensation on German side.

Theoretically, that's the problem. To get more, you had to donatate more. Poland's role in defeat of nazism is nowhere near than Soviet role. To claim Konigsberg from Germany, you at least had to fight for this city/ It's our soldiers who died in battle for this city, not yours. When this city-fortress was full of nazi soldiers where have you been? Were where you glorious Polish armies? Why Soviets had to fight for it and lost thousans of lives of their soldiers? If you needed it so badly, you had to fight for it. You didn't fight for it. You had no right to demand it. Simple as that, case is closed.

Nope, that country is Russia.

Russia has not a single territorial calim towards any of its neighbours.

When it comes to Poland, it was hard after Iww not to have claims towards neighbours, as Poland was divided in between them. It's like saying JKurds are extremly agressive nation, because they have pretensions toward Turkish, Iraqi, Iranian and Syrian territory at one time. It's just dumb. Also, we had very good relations with Latvia and Romania. Unlike USSR.

Poor, innocent Poland, who use every opportunity to grab new land.

Poland was weak and young as well, and it was USSR who started the fighting. The peace treaty was signed, and USSR had no reasons to breake it.

1) There was a civil war in Russia.
2) Poland used this opportunity and invaded Soviets.
3) In 20's and 30's Poland considered as enemy No1 for USSR. And Soviet Union had all reasons to return lands that Poland captured in 1921. And they reuturned those lands in 1939.

Millions of Soviet soldiers died only thanks to Soviet ignorance and idiotism

F*ck you. Thanks to those Russian soldiers who died in this war you are alive now. You wouldn't have been born, had Russians didn't defeat Germans. Whole your glorious army was crashed within month. And you tell me about ignorance and idiotism?
F*cking whining suckers.

Exterminating it partly on its own. Additionally, I would like to remind You Poland never surrendered to Germany, and Polish armies were fighting against Germany both on western and eastern front, also hand to hand with Soviets.

Good, and how many Polish armies participated in battle of Konigsberg to claim it for Poland? How much Werhmacht armies were defeated by Poilsh forces. Remind me a Polish-German battle which was a turning point of WW2. Explain why Poland should benefit from defeat of Germany more than Russia.

Oh, and that your grandpa died fighting near Krolewiec doesn't mean Russia can claim it.

Moron. Had he died during battle of Konigsberg, I wouldn't type there now. He was heavily injured there.

Polish soldiers were dieing fighting in Norway, Italy, Belgium, France, Libya, Ukraine, Byelorus, Germany itself etc, and we do not claim these lands.

Ok, I see now. You seems to believe that mighty Polish army defeated nazism and saved humanity.
Polish contribution to defeat of Hitler's hordes and Polish war effort is NOWHERE NEAR than Soviet contribution and Soviet war effort. There is no a single reason why you should benefit from defeat of Germany more than country which played DECISIVE role in victory over nazism.

It's true, not bs, You ignorant

So, how about my suggestion, that you didn't comment? If you think that Konigsberg should be Polish, because it was (or suppose to be Polish) in 17 century, then Poland should be Russian, because it was part of Russian Empire. You still do not understand that you've posted pure BS?

It was the official propaganda, and the number is about entire USSR, not Russia.

It's accurate number from the historical research done after collapse of SU. USSR lost 26,6 millions of people in this war. If you already read Russian, go there (actually, after such comments, I would send you to another place, but I doubt you'll understand what "poshel na hui" means)
educate yourself:
http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/...apter5_02.html

Poland was, especially after the second robbery - by Soviet liberators. I'd like to remind You entire Poland, and only a part of SU, was under occupation.

Had all Russia was under occupation, you would never exist Heresson. You have to pray all you Catholic idols, that Russia exist and always save the world from reign of crazy conquerers who try to capture the planet.

You didn't win it alone. Not USSR alone, not Russia alone. Why the hell Uzbekhistan or Kazakhstan didn't receive something too?

Are you nuts?
Sure you are.
USSR was a single, united country. When the hell you'll understand this?

Really? Poland before the war - 35mln people,
Poland after the war - 25 mln people. 10 mln citizens lost, including over 6mln killed, also by Soviets.

And it would have been 0.0 millions of people, had Soviets didn't destroy nazis and saved you from complete extermination as nation.

You're being silly, Serb

My God, are You a fanatic.

You're being Heresson

My God, you are Pole.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DataAeolus
A bit off but somewhat related.

I have a friend whose father was a child during World War II in Romania.

He told me that Romanians preferred German occupation compared to the Soviet 'liberation.' According to him, aside from their racial ideology Germans were very respectful. While they took things they needed they often make an effort to pay compensation in exchange. One story he told was about how Germans took over a school to use as barracks. When they left, Romanians found the school in a much better condition - it has been repaired and there was even a small flower garden outside.

On the other hand, when Soviets came in and liberated them, they just looted the place and took whatever they wanted without reburisments.

They should have been praying to all their Romanian Gods, that Soviets didn't acted like them in Russia.
F*ckers invaded our country, killed millions of our citizens, burned to the ground thousands of our towns and you expect we should have been nice with agressors?
Had Soviets acted like those f*cking invaders, including Romanian f*cking invaders, Germany and all its satellites who invaded USSR in 1941, wouldn't exist today.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
I thought You'd answer like that, but it's not the right understanding of what I have written. Perhaps it's my mistake, if so, sorry. What I have written was that after the war, Poland was reduced by 10 mln citizens, including over 6mln killed, and of those 6mln some were killed by Soviets.

26.6 millions of Russians died in this war and some of them were killed by Poles, I'm sure.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DataAeolus


Perhaps... but a liberation should be just that, not a looting fest.

Perhaps...you don't get it?
Romania was part of the AXIS. Romanian army invaded Soviet Union in 1941 and comitted atrocities there on pair with Hitler's forces.
About what kind of liberation are you talking about? Soviets fought versus their enemy, Romania was the same enemy as Germany.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Man Serb, I really need to call your insane asylum because internet access to mentally handicaped people is obviously not working in your case.

Stupid f*cker.
I work for internet provider company and it is I who provide access.

Soviet WWII apologist. It is pathetic. *****ing at people for all the injustices done to Russia (manufatured usually, but you are right by mistake sometimes) and then using the same logic you accuse the defilers applied to you for your own actions.

Your defensivness betrays your evil intent

Get out of here, you have no idea about history of Russian-Polish relationship.

P.S. And go get your medication...mr. "60 millions of Soviet citizens killed by their own government".

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Serb


Stupid f*cker.
I work for internet provider company and it is I who provide access.

That was a good one