"Heads will roll...just watch me"

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why? The Tories do much better, while the NDP has always been seen as the fringe, despite the media coverage.

I don't see NDP support fluctuating, compared to the Conservative party which is currently going through some big changes.

I would not call a party elected to govern Ontario and BC to be fringe. You and others who do, do so at the risk of a large comeuppance.

This could be the best chance the NDP ever had. People will look for alternatives to the Liberals after a certain point. The longer they govern, the more that will happen.

Do you think the voters of Ontario would prefer a right wing or a left wing government? I don't pretend to know who they would choose when they are good and sick of the Liberals for a spell, but I have a feeling a soft left would play better there (and East of them) than a hard right ever would.

This isn't about who we might favour, Ben. It is about trying to take other POVs into account and how to entice the gaggle that inhabits the centre. That is where elections are won and lost in Canada. In the centre.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by St Leo
What Canada needs is for the Liberals to split into two parties.

No, that's what the NDP needs.

[Ben Kenobi]

Most I know consider the NDP to be a fringe party for leftists.

Even my parents, who are more liberal than I am on social issues, would never vote for them.

They do terrible in BC, because many of the rank and file voters detest their policies, which devastated the economy of the province.

Activists, in general, would vote for them, but most people will swing between the two main parties, of either Tories or Liberals.

Do you think the voters of Ontario would prefer a right wing or a left wing government?

The NDP are not fiscally conservative. They will not attract the voters in Ontario, who we are now seeing are concerned with where their tax dollars go. These voters, who want a fiscally prudent administration do not see such prudence in the NDP.

[notyoueither]

Ontario turfed the NDP of Rae and brought in Harris and the Tories. Word is they were not happy in the long run with either.

It seems to me that Ontario is there to be taken by either Conservative or NDP, if either of them can strike the right chords.

Oh, and btw, please do not use the term 'Tory' for the new party. They haven't earned it, yet.

[FS*]

The only reason that BC is liberal is because the local NDP (last regime) were wading through scandals that were on a par with what's happening in Ottawa right now. The backlash in the last election all but eliminated the NDP in BC.

But we're still keeping pace with this round... our liberal premier- bless his pointy head- was arrested year before last in Hawai for DUI. His mug shot was on all the papers next day.

That's coastal politics for you... guaranteed entertaining, if somewhat eccentric and flaky, with a generous dollop of corruption for flavor.

[mrmitchell]

was arrested year before last in Hawai for DUI.

That's the difference between Canada and America--in America, we have oppurtunity. Why if a pointy-headed American recieved a DUI he'd be well on his way to the Presidency.

[Ben Kenobi]

They haven't earned it, yet.

Why not?

They have earned the term. They had the support of over 90% of the Tory party delegates, and around 94% of the Alliance.

If that is not a mandate, than I don't know what would count.

our liberal premier- bless his pointy head- was arrested year before last in Hawai for DUI. His mug shot was on all the papers next day.

His poll numbers bounced up after that... It made him look more human, rather than staid. He will live or die, on whether or not his budget gets balanced.

[FS*]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Why if a pointy-headed American recieved a DUI he'd be well on his way to the Presidency.

Uhm... that would be Ralph Klein, over in Alberta.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why not?

They have earned the term. They had the support of over 90% of the Tory party delegates, and around 94% of the Alliance.

If that is not a mandate, than I don't know what would count.

They haven't proved they are real Tories yet.

Tory can be a pejorative term used by opponents to describe reactionary conservatives, or it can be one who follows a tradition of nation building and responsible government with a clear idea of a social contract.

It is not the Tory party influence in the new Conservatives that is the issue, it is the influence of the anti-Quebec, anti-Maritimes, regional snit-fitters that is the issue. The Harper that I have heard of is no Tory.

[FS*]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
His poll numbers bounced up after that... It made him look more human, rather than staid. He will live or die, on whether or not his budget gets balanced.

True enough. But there's no fear of him being the one... BC's had every variety of savant, and every last one of them has had a plan for balancing the budget.

It's just a shame that disappearing millions doesn't count as being 'balanced'. The latest sum is about, oh, 2.3 million dollars in 'forgiven' debts owed by several fish farm operations...

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by FS*


Uhm... that would be Ralph Klein, over in Alberta.

You're right, except it was an argument with someone while he was drunk. Of course, we allow for the fact that pols might be human. We are not hypocrites who drink and then decry the man for enjoying the barley himself.

[Ben Kenobi]

or it can be one who follows a tradition of nation building and responsible government with a clear idea of a social contract.

Well, by this definition, the Liberals are the New Tories. Heck, even the NDP could be considered the New Tories.

I think you need some kind of historical connection between the Progressive Conservative party in order to be considered a Tory.

It is not the Tory party influence in the new Conservatives that is the issue, it is the influence of the anti-Quebec, anti-Maritimes, regional snit-fitters that is the issue.

Look at all the Tory governments in the past. This type of coalition has traditionally produced their nation building governments.

The Harper that I have heard of is no Tory.

I would beg to differ. He's more of a Tory than Joe Who.

[Ben Kenobi]

had every variety of savant, and every last one of them has had a plan for balancing the budget.

Even Duff Patullo?

The latest sum is about, oh, 2.3 million dollars in 'forgiven' debts owed by several fish farm operations...

Never heard of it.

[FS*]

It's not the barley that grates. It's the circumstances.

But Klein's a smart cookie. Campbell wants to be just like him when he grows up.

[notyoueither]

Well, Ben, if you think that anti-Quebec makes a Tory, that shows about what you know of the subject.

You can beg to differ all you want, but being a Tory means more than wanting lower taxes, fewer social programs, and saying screw you to people from other regions of the country.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by FS*
It's not the barley that grates. It's the circumstances.

But Klein's a smart cookie. Campbell wants to be just like him when he grows up.

Yeah, the circumstances sucked. You have to know a bit about Ralph to understand though. He fancies himself to be a man of the people. While mayor of Calgary he used to hold court in a tavern on a somewhat regular schedule.

On that night he was lit and asked his driver to stop by a homeless shelter. In his intoxicated exuberance he wanted to shake some hands and get closer to 'the people'. Needless to say that Ralph is not well liked in some quarters, and it was a very stupid thing to stop there while drunk. Someone said something nasty. Ralph is perfectly able to defend himself when confronted and replied with unkind words of his own. The incident was born.

I think we care more that he fessed up to having a drinking problem, and has done well in controlling it since.

[Ben Kenobi]

that anti-Quebec makes a Tory, that shows about what you know of the subject.

Considering that Harper speaks French very well, I fail to see how he is anti-Quebec.

How do you define anti-Quebec, NYE?

[FS*]

Originally posted by notyoueither

I think we care more that he fessed up to having a drinking problem, and has done well in controlling it since.

I recall his 'eastern creeps and bums' comment. Definitely a man who speaks his mind. He has certainly weathered his share of gaffes, but you have to give the guy his due.

A lot of people would like him to take on a higher office... that would be interesting.

Ben:

Duff Patullo... yes, well, if we have to go all the way back to the thirties, I suppose someone's bound to stand a little higher than the rest.

Latest on the fisheries: http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/ser...elioff20040213

[Ben Kenobi]

FS:

From your quote:

He said the fines were levied as a result of a huge backlog of paperwork at Land and Water B.C. And Campbell says the fish farms should not have to suffer because of that backlog.

Makes sense to me. Clearing away some of the red-tape.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
q]that anti-Quebec makes a Tory, that shows about what you know of the subject.[/q]
Considering that Harper speaks French very well, I fail to see how he is anti-Quebec.

How do you define anti-Quebec, NYE?

Your own words in response to mine:

Quote:

It is not the Tory party influence in the new Conservatives that is the issue, it is the influence of the anti-Quebec, anti-Maritimes, regional snit-fitters that is the issue.

Look at all the Tory governments in the past. This type of coalition has traditionally produced their nation building governments.

I think it's rather interesting that you clip anti-Quebec out and link that with Harper. Harper is not the only member of the old Reform.

Harper's rep in Atlantic Canada is bound to lend strength there though. or NOT.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by FS*
I recall his 'eastern creeps and bums' comment. Definitely a man who speaks his mind. He has certainly weathered his share of gaffes, but you have to give the guy his due.

A lot of people would like him to take on a higher office... that would be interesting.

Yes it would be, except that federally he would probably go Liberal and there is little room at that inn here where he is from and less nationally for a leader from Alberta. Except then Anne McLellan is breaking all sorts of conventional wisdoms in that regard.

Ralph does have a mouth on him. And a finger, if you can recall an incident while he was Minister of the Environment. I think that's one of the reasons why he was able to repair Tory prospects here after the disaster that was Getty. People around here regard him as being honest and upfront, if somewhat flawed. That is why he connected and managed to rebuild the Tories without the voters choosing a different party.

I suspect Martin is studying his playbook, somewhat how Harris did for different reasons.

[Ben Kenobi]

it is the influence of the anti-Quebec, anti-Maritimes, regional snit-fitters that is the issue.

Your case lacks one point.

Where do you mention Harper specifically? You might mean this, but you sure don't say it.

It's hard for me to read your mind, NYE.

Again, why is Harper Anti-Quebec?

A direct answer would be appreciated.

[notyoueither]

I didn't say that Harper was anti-Quebec, why do you think I did? I said that the party he comes from has that taint. He himself buried his foot in it when he decided to comment on the Maritimes.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Harper that I have heard of is no Tory.

if you think that anti-Quebec makes a Tory, that shows about what you know of the subject.

What are you trying to say here NYE? Harper is not a Tory because he is anti-Quebec? Seems clear to me.

[notyoueither]

Why do you continue twisting words and quotes?

I said

It is not the Tory party influence in the new Conservatives that is the issue, it is the influence of the anti-Quebec, anti-Maritimes, regional snit-fitters that is the issue. The Harper that I have heard of is no Tory.

Reform is somewhat rightly painted with an anti-Quebec brush. Do you dispute that?

Regional snit-fitters. You think they were other than a protest party grown large by the sacking of an established party?

Anti-Maritimes Harper earned all on his own with his big mouth and ignorance. No, I don't consider him a Tory, based on his own statements that tend to be nation wrecking rather than building.

You quoted my previous statement directly when you said:

Look at all the Tory governments in the past. This type of coalition has traditionally produced their nation building governments.

To which I replied to the effect that you don't know what the fvck you are talking about because you are obviously clueless on the topic.

The fact that most Tory PMs have had significant support from Quebec seems to have slipped your limited grasp of Canadian history.

Never mind the fact that the first government of Canada was that of Tories with strong support in Quebec, and that it was a Tory plan to build the rail roads to build the nation. Never mind the fact that the last Tory government was strongly based in Quebec.

Now run along, Junior. Or should I call you troll?

[Ben Kenobi]

Reform is somewhat rightly painted with an anti-Quebec brush. Do you dispute that?

For their language policies, which have since faded away.

Regional snit-fitters. You think they were other than a protest party grown large by the sacking of an established party?

Yes, they also offered superior policies to improve federalism in Canada, ranging from senate reforms to fiscal responsibility.

Anti-Maritimes Harper earned all on his own with his big mouth and ignorance. No, I don't consider him a Tory, based on his own statements that tend to be nation wrecking rather than building.

Well, don't leave us in suspense. What did Harper say to merit such righteous indignation on the part of Maritimers?

The fact that most Tory PMs have had significant support from Quebec seems to have slipped your limited grasp of Canadian history.

But lacking said support does not make the Tories 'anti-Quebec.' I am still puzzled by what you consider anti-Quebec behavior in this new Conservative party. Rather, the party seems to bend over backwards, in asserting the rightful position of French as an official language, something that was rejected by the Reform party.

[notyoueither]

And again, it is those Reform party roots that are the issue. It will be nice if the new party keeps away from that course, and tends away from regionalism. That is the point, but I'll have to see it to be convinced.

[notyoueither]

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/05/29...r_atlntc020529

Harper plans to battle 'culture of defeatism' in Atlantic Canada
Last Updated Thu, 30 May 2002 13:24:06
OTTAWA - Members of the Nova Scotia legislature voted unanimously Thursday in favor of a resolution condemning Stephen Harper, the leader of the Canadian Alliance.

The resolution was in response to Harper's comments that there is a "defeatist attitude" in Atlantic Canada.


Stephen Harper

"There is a dependence in the region that breeds a culture of defeatism," the Opposition leader said Wednesday following question period in the House.

Nova Scotia's motion called on Harper to look at problems in his own party, and distinguish between the Alliance's unbroken string of defeats in most provinces and the reality of achievement and optimism in the Atlantic region.

Harper tried to clarify his remarks Wednesday by saying that the defeatist culture isn't restricted to Atlantic Canada. But he added that his party has to break through that attitude if the Canadian Alliance is to have a breakthrough of its own in region.

"We have a program that says that Atlantic Canada can be as wealthy as any other region, but that needs to be pursued aggressively and we don't sit around waiting for favours," he said.

People on the streets in the region couldn't believe Harper's comments. "What part of Canada is he from?" one asked.

Atlantic economy booming, says political scientist

NDP leader Alexa McDonough, an Atlantic Canadian, says the comments don't sit well with her.

"This is the real Stephen Harper who wanted to put up firewalls around Alberta to keep us nasty Eastern Canadians out because we're ne'er-do-wells and lazy bums," said McDonough.

Joe Clark says the Alliance leader is treading dangerous waters. "All of us should be very careful to not apply false caricatures to a region."

New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord says Harper is wrong about the economic prospects of the region.

"I think he's sadly mistaken and I would invite him to take the time to come and visit," he said. "In fact, the people here have a very positive attitude."

A political scientist from Dalhousie University in Halifax says Atlantic Canada is actually booming. "The region is moving forward economically," said Jennifer Smith. "It's growing faster than other regions of the country.

"I'm sure that comes as a surprise to some people, but it won't come to a surprise to people who are living here in the region."

Harper allowed there are positive signs in the region, pointing New Brunswick out in particular. But he insisted there is still a long way to go.

"It's not going to be a secret to people in Atlantic Canada that they don't feel very optimistic about their prospects and that's why children and grandchildren have been leaving that region for years," he said. "We're going to change that."

Harper will get closer look at the culture of Atlantic Canada this summer when he plans a tour of the region.

and after they spoke out, he still didn't listen, instead he continued with more idiotic comments based on out-dated stereotypes.

[Mr. Harley]

Guys, there is another, very unpleasant racist aspect of the Quebecois. It seems that part of their official position is that the Native Americans in the province, should they become independent, will be forced to use French as their primary language. Of course the various groups protested, and stated that if Quebec declared independence, they wanted to be able to take the Native American portions of the province back into Canada, in a large part because of all the rights Canada has given them in recent years, you put us Yanks to shame. The Quebecois reply, of course, was they couldn't do THAT. While the Quebecois want to be able to leave Canada, they want to prevent any of their citizen groups from having similar freedom of choice who might disagree with the Quebecois and take all the lucrative, one-sided hydro-Quebec projects built on Native American land (I believe, correct me if I am wrong, the Cree are one of the largest Native American nations in northern Quebec).

[notyoueither]

You bring up a good point, other than the fact that the Cree (and others) are already forced to get by in French, just as the Cree (and others) of Alberta are forced by circumstances to deal with the provincial government and society in general in English, here.

However, the Cree of Northern Quebec maintain that they have signed treaties with the Crown, not some Republicans in Quebec City. They will not recognise Quebec City without the continued sovereignty of Ottawa being involved. They are adamant, somewhat militant, and they have Quebec by the balls on the issue.