*nudges out Spiffor* I need a great Space STRATEGY game! - Page 2

Spaced Cowboy · February 17, 2004, 16:06

Oh yeah, I have that one too.

For some reason the warp links in these games makes them....uh what is the word I'm looking for.....oh, yeah, suck!

Boris Godunov · February 17, 2004, 16:22

In what way? Both Ascendancy and SEIV Gold use warp links, and I can get accustomed to them if the other game factors are solid enough.

Urban Ranger · February 18, 2004, 00:14

I have never played Ascendancy, but heard that it was bad.

Grumbold · February 18, 2004, 11:10

Pax Imperia (PC) was okay but nothing special.

Ascendancy was fun but the AI was a walkover.

Spaced Cowboy · February 18, 2004, 11:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
In what way? Both Ascendancy and SEIV Gold use warp links, and I can get accustomed to them if the other game factors are solid enough.

Yeah, but choke points in space do not make much sense.

I think that both of those games bog down in the end because of the WL. I've started my own space tactical game at one point, but never finished. Not enough time in the day for that. Maybe if I win the lottery.

Jamski · February 18, 2004, 12:26

Choke points in space make sense from a game theory point of view. Otherwise there is no "territory" to fight over.

-Jam

Guynemer · February 18, 2004, 13:09

Star Control 2.

Action/adventure/strategy/economics. With ha has.

Pure gaming goodness.

Urban Ranger · February 18, 2004, 13:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
Choke points in space make sense from a game theory point of view. Otherwise there is no "territory" to fight over.

-Jam

I present to you, Dune.

Even simple population pressure will cause interstellar empires to expand outward.

VetLegion · February 18, 2004, 17:32

Azazel, did you get FA to run under WinXP? I tried, it starts but crashes very soon in the game.

Jamski · February 18, 2004, 17:36

Quote:

Even simple population pressure will cause interstellar empires to expand outward.

Its a satire on Islam, not population pressure

No, I mean without choke points there is nothing to define the terrain. Which you need for a game, especially a stratagy game.

-Jam

Spaced Cowboy · February 18, 2004, 19:07

I still disagree, some of the better ones that I've played (MoO, the first IG) did not have this and I liked them more.

Jamski · February 18, 2004, 19:39

This is why I think MoM is a better game than MoO. MoO is about defending points in space.

-Jam

Urban Ranger · February 19, 2004, 00:09

No way, MoM sucks. The entire game is not well thought out, some of the abilities are way broken, and the whole thing just seem haphazard.

Jamski · February 19, 2004, 04:43

I beg to differ.

It may have a few small flaws, but it is surely one of the great classic games. MoM sucks is just a tiny bit far from the truth

Anyway - the use of "warp lanes" or whatever in 4x games to create chokepoints has one very important side effect - it simplifies AI path-finding.

-Jam

Urban Ranger · February 19, 2004, 05:27

What? You don't need path finding in space 4x games. It's always a straight line between two systems.

In fact, warp links will make it more difficult.

Skanky Burns · February 19, 2004, 07:42

There are more than 2 systems normally in space games.

Az · February 19, 2004, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by VetLegion
Azazel, did you get FA to run under WinXP? I tried, it starts but crashes very soon in the game.

I don't have WinXP, sorry, can't help you.

Best game ever. I have the original CD.

Spaced Cowboy · February 19, 2004, 10:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
I beg to differ.

It may have a few small flaws, but it is surely one of the great classic games. MoM sucks is just a tiny bit far from the truth

Anyway - the use of "warp lanes" or whatever in 4x games to create chokepoints has one very important side effect - it simplifies AI path-finding.

-Jam

I can't argue with that. MoM is a really cool game, but it does have a few flaws.

As far as warp lanes are concerned.
1. SEIV - warp lanes take one move point as do system moves.
2. MoO3, Pax, and ascend. all have multiple move warps. These seem to bog down the end game quite a bit (Not that I finished a game of MoO3).

I still prefer the no warp lanes games, with chokepoints/territory defined by scanners and technology.

Jamski · February 19, 2004, 10:31

I've modded my MoO3 to have high-speed warp-lanes and moderate speed off-road travel. Don't even ask why I've gone back to this game this last week, but it seems to be quite a nice system now.

-Jam

Grumbold · February 19, 2004, 10:49

Resistance is futile. You will come to love MoO3

MoO1 had implied warp lanes. You couldn't park or have combat in space. You travelled from star to star. Not being able to travel further than your fuel range allowed was an added twist and one I welcome, although it did make games hard to balance at the start.

Jamski · February 19, 2004, 10:55

Quote:

Resistance is futile. You will come to love MoO3

Must... resist... MoO3...

I have to admit that when patched and heavily modded it is playable, and actually not bad fun. Its not the best game ever or anything, and I find myself screaming "Why!?!" a bit too often, but still... it rewards a patient approach.

-Jam

Boris Godunov · February 19, 2004, 11:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I have never played Ascendancy, but heard that it was bad.

Ascendancy was my first 4X game. I don't even remember how I got it. Funny thing is that it still works on my XP machine.

Ascendancy was beautiful, really. The atmosphere it created was its best suit, but it had several other great aspects, including ship design, the fun space combat, and the 3-D, rotatable galaxy which could have literally hundreds of star systems. The solar systems were also 3-D and rotatable, so combat was 3-D. I also liked the colonization and planetary improvement system, and the research tree was quite creative. For the time, also, the graphics were superb. The musical score was also a big part of the atmosphere.

The biggest flaw, as mentioned, was that the AI was brain-dead. It was just too easy. However, there was a patch released that you can still download that does improve the AI a bit. Not enough to satisfy a lot of people, though, I'm sure.

Tied into that was that the Warp Lane system allowed you know exactly when enemy fleets were approaching which systems and set up ambushes. You could just park ships by the warp point in the solar systems and wait as the enemy moved into a trap. See, once you entered a star lane, you couldn't go back or stop. You had to go through to the other side. And it could take many, many turns to get through them. The good thing, however, was that in a big galaxy, even in the late game you would still find unexplored star systems and unclaimed planets, as traveling to far-off stars was time-consuming for everyone.

The final big problem was the end-game micromanagement of systems and fleets. Once you got a sizeable empire, it was a heavy burden to handle it all. If you wanted to upgrade ships, you had to send them--individually, as there was no fleet movement or ability to group ships--to a system with a space dock and then refit each ship in turn (since each planet could only work on one project at a time, you'd have to rotate the ships into the dock to refit, which takes many turns depending on the refit needed, and in the meantime the planet could build nothing else). Also, you were bombarded with messages when your planets had free population or built something or yadayadayada that you couldn't disable.

Still, IMO the rewards of the game outweighed the negatives enough to be engrossed by it for some time and to still think of it fondly as my first 4X game. With a few mods it could be even better.

Grumbold · February 19, 2004, 11:24

Yeah I certainly don't consider my time spent playing Ascendancy wasted. I'd tear my hair out every time I captured a good world and found all the wrong buildings built on the resource multiplier tiles, but it was fun all the same

Boris Godunov · February 19, 2004, 11:25

Oh, and I fired up IG2 the other night and have been playing that. It really has some wonderful ideas as well, but the interface is somewhat frustrating and the inability to select galaxy size is irritating. It's a little too rigid in terms of having a set storyline and occurances. At least you can move freely throughout the galaxy, and they limit expansion by making your ships have a steadily decreasing radar range the further they get from your territory. So you have to research more powerful radar and expand progressively over neighboring worlds. I'd be interested in seeing something similar implemented in a Civ game to prevent ICS and the all-too-early exploration of everything on the map.

Boris Godunov · February 19, 2004, 11:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
Yeah I certainly don't consider my time spent playing Ascendancy wasted. I'd tear my hair out every time I captured a good world and found all the wrong buildings built on the resource multiplier tiles, but it was fun all the same

, yeah, that was a *****. Again, brain-dead AI.

But what about the thrill of discovering an uninhabited system with a huge planet that was covered totally in green, blue and red tiles? Ah, the joy...

Cookie Monster · February 19, 2004, 11:53

With all due respect that is due to respected gamers here....

MOO3 how shall I put this? MOO3 is a "pregnant female dog". MOO3 "uses vacuum suction on male donkey thingies".

Now with that said how could anyone trash Star Wars Rebellion?

Sorry I did not intend to sound like a typical "not very nice person", but my experience with MOO3 was abysmal and I usually love TBS micromanaging minutiae.

I'll echo what some have said about Stars!, it definately keeps you entertained for a while but you will soon find yourself being dragged back to C3C!

Boris Godunov · February 19, 2004, 12:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Cookie Monster
Now with that said how could anyone trash Star Wars Rebellion?

Grumbold · February 19, 2004, 14:11

MoO3 patched into something playable and at least has a huge feeling of scope.

Rebellion (Supremacy this side of the pond) was similarly limp but had the added disadvantage of making you feel like the Empire was a couple of rusting space tugs and a handful of personnel instead of something big and implacable. Especially when a random start could see you with a truly useless combination of planets and installations.

IG2 is a lot of fun but I get tired of the monster fleet endgame. Especially when you can trick the enemy monster fleet into running in circles while you clean up.

Boris Godunov · February 19, 2004, 14:21

The problem with Rebellion is in its very concept. A planetary management strategy game just doesn't fit the story, as the Empire is supposed to span the galaxy and control a million worlds, while the Rebellion is a small rag-tag outfit that doesn't even control planets, just get support from a very few rim worlds

Cookie Monster · February 19, 2004, 14:46

Well yeah, uh emmm, yeah those things WRT Rebellion(Supremacy) detract from the game but...........

How about if you're a Star Wars nut like me, then is it a good game? I admit it's a weak arguement but maybe I can serve as an example. Meaning that you have to be a fanatic of the subject matter to overlook serious flaws? I guess one could make that arguement about MOO3 as well. In sum I have respect for others opinions of games that I might dislike and will leave it at that.