HOTW4.0 Out of Charcter Thread part III

[deity]

Originally posted by ljcvetko
Not me deity. I invite you to wipe me out to satisfy your primal urge to kill.

Why have you suddenly decided to kill everybody? I thought you wanted to build a spaceship.

Whether you are going to wipe somebody out or not depends solely on your character. Personally I think that it's unfair to wipe anybody out. Before I even think about it, I consider that they have invested much in this game and that they would feel empty after I eliminate them, so I decide not to do it. Just like you said, the most important thing is enjoyment and friendship.

As far as what you are allowed to do, well, consider that your actions will cause reactions, so better not try anything exaggerated.

I was after SS but Frank threatened to wipe out my Pacific colonies if I didn't sell them to him.

With howies as thery are there is no way I'm attacking and just taking a few cities. That's what Raz did to India and then lost half his civ.
So it's ridiculous to attack first without a decisive blow. If someone attacks me I'll do what Berzerker did to Egypt.
If I decide on pre-emptive action and have the ability I'm not going to leave ther door open am I?

All along I wanted to build SS. So, you think because I wanted to build SS I should predictably stick with that plan? You don't like surprise? I thought you liked devious manipulative stuff

And you still haven't given me any advice other than to say, don't wipe anyone out... I don't get it. IS SS the only way to win necause with your philosophy of not upsetting anyone there is no way to win militarily...

[deity]

I don't get it!

[OzzyKP]

For the last week or two we've been discussing an alternate way to win. Did you not read it?

It was looking like everyone was agreeing we wouldn't do the SS and/or conquest ending to this game for precisely the same reasons that caused HOTW2 to crash and burn at the end and what are causing siginficant problems to this game right now. This is why we are looking at the alein invasion ending, and is why I was so surprized and disgusted you choose to eliminate Frank at this point.

I agree with everything Ljube said. Diplowar should be limited and strategic. There had been plenty of opportunities to wipe out smaller players like Egypt or the Tartars, and some had even suggested it, but not once did I support such a ridiculous idea. We are all playing this game together, we have all invested so much of ourselves into it. At this stage in the game to decide by yourself to remove one of your fellow players from the game is very insulting.

War exists, war will always exist. However I think it greatly hurts everyone's enjoyment of the game to have a person eliminated, as you attempted to do with Frank. As you said, we've invested 4-6 hours every week for 16 straight weeks. Plus time outside of that posting, crafting characters and stories, strategizing and ploting with each other. It is arrogant and destructive to just remove a person from the game single-handedly.

Frank had a very limited proposal and had a very limited idea of war in mind. You on the other hand were trying to take him out, not persuing any strategic objectives.

Again, we are gonna do the alien ending it seems, so lets try to keep everyone in the game until then. So screw spaceship, screw conquest, we are gonna try a cooperative victory. Everyone can win.

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
For the last week or two we've been discussing an alternate way to win. Did you not read it?

It was looking like everyone was agreeing we wouldn't do the SS and/or conquest ending to this game for precisely the same reasons that caused HOTW2 to crash and burn at the end and what are causing siginficant problems to this game right now. This is why we are looking at the alein invasion ending, and is why I was so surprized and disgusted you choose to eliminate Frank at this point.

I agree with everything Ljube said. Diplowar should be limited and strategic. There had been plenty of opportunities to wipe out smaller players like Egypt or the Tartars, and some had even suggested it, but not once did I support such a ridiculous idea. We are all playing this game together, we have all invested so much of ourselves into it. At this stage in the game to decide by yourself to remove one of your fellow players from the game is very insulting.

War exists, war will always exist. However I think it greatly hurts everyone's enjoyment of the game to have a person eliminated, as you attempted to do with Frank. As you said, we've invested 4-6 hours every week for 16 straight weeks. Plus time outside of that posting, crafting characters and stories, strategizing and ploting with each other. It is arrogant and destructive to just remove a person from the game single-handedly.

Frank had a very limited proposal and had a very limited idea of war in mind. You on the other hand were trying to take him out, not persuing any strategic objectives.

Again, we are gonna do the alien ending it seems, so lets try to keep everyone in the game until then. So screw spaceship, screw conquest, we are gonna try a cooperative victory. Everyone can win.

I can't believe this stuff... and it proves the rules debate was a total red herring.

We've been playing this game for 16 weeks BASED ON either SS or conquest victory. Suddenly we start discussing an extra possibility with aliens. Fine. But we never agreed to all make peace and just concentrate on alien ending!

We agreed on continuing this game as is with the same even playing field UNTIL Apollo is built. THEN that alien situation might unfold as an experiment. It's pretty artificial to just "keep everyone in the game until ozzy's last minute ending arrives" LOL!

And, re-read my ultimatum post. My war plan was to take one or two cities and EMPTY many other Chinese cities of their units but NOT to take them. But Frank refused any sort of deal and aggressively maintained a war footing in attitiude. So I kept taking cities. It's a lesson in diplo strategy he needs to learn anyway. Be bold or fold!

You know this. You've done the same as me with Belinda as the Mali in HOTW2; and in other games too I think.

So, in purely diplo terms I take one Chinese city, empty many others but not take them and get my posted deal signed. This posted deal was meant to be the catalyst for world peace and help precipitate the alien ending. Frank should have signed it.

Because he didn't I followed through with a civ destroying move, reluctantly, but you would never have believed me that I could do it otherwise. Frank was defiant and incapable of dipomatic compromise. He's young. A young brave and galant leader, to his nations demise.

If diplo war is meant to be limited and strategic we should have made a rule about it. It's ridiculous to make these judgements now. Why didn't you say this when Berzerker responded to Raz's "limited and strategic attack"? What's the difference? If I'd attacked China in this way and China had responded like India had to Egypts attack, I might be dead!

Your rationale is all screwed up. I just don't get it. We are all wriggling around with no clear judgement or rule about how far one should go in a diplo end-game. I agree with your philosoiphy prior to the late game stages which is why I only took two cities off Ljube in the Middle Ages and gave one back on signing the Treaty of Budva. By Frank not signing my ultimatum you are actually precipitating the scenario you wish to avoid. I use high powered diplo strategy backed upo by military means. It worked on Serbia. It failed in China.

Having all agreed to conquest being a victory outcome of a diplo game I find the things you say insulting when I actually try to win the game WITHIN the AGREED RULES.

[deity]

Here it is for convenience.

This was to be announced at the point that Azande had taken one or two cities and emptied but NOT taken many other Chinese cities.

NB This is the real demand. The chat about disbanding howies and armour was only relevant in the context of saving turn time and getting a partial result - completely unsatisfactory considering the storyline and posted demands.

---

Ultimatum to China and USB from Lizard

Regretfully this pre-emptive action was necessary, given the Chinese impending threat in the Pacific. Azande intelligence is clear about this and all perpetrators of war will be vanquished unless these points are agreed.

1. Troop numbers must be kept under 100 with only around 10% attackers (advise is to disband any old units and have a crack force of 100 top units)
2. Science Rates and the building of improvements and Wonders (save Manhattans) must increase; for Azande scientists are receiving a strange signal on their SETI apparatus in Upper Azande – TAKE NOTE
3. No nations can be attacked and all normal civilian activities must resume – the weapons race must end! No retaliation on Azande.
4. In return all cities taken will be returned except a few key points for peace-keeping purposes
5. AND all cities undefended will not be taken so as to preserve the lives of civilians and their infrastructure.

This world stands upon a precipice. In addition Lizard asks all nations to adhere to these points for the sake of our world.

A posted agreement is required before the Azande call a halt to their advance…

[OzzyKP]

I don't think its a matter of rules, but rather common sense. I hate the idea of writing up 5 pages of rules to control our behavior. We shouldn't need something like that to have a fun game. We should be able to restain ourselves and keep this a friendly game.

Your proposal for ending the war was ingenuine and ridiculously harsh. It was not the treaty you offered Ljube. Emptying out all his cities, jeeze, I know I wouldn't accept something like that. I couldn't speak out against the India-Egyptian war because I wasn't there, remember? After the fact I threatened to go to war with India in support of Egypt. My conscience is clear.

Its not comparable with my actions in HOTW2 as the treaty I offered Belinda was immediate, unconditional peace. I wasn't demanding she empty out all her cities. I just wanted a promise that she not attack me, she refused, and thus I continued.

Again, we have the alien ending. Why screw things up before we even get there?

But hell, if you want to play a game of elimination, lets go for it, see how long you last.

[deity]

I meant that I would kill his city units but NOT take the cities.

Would you prefer a civ with emptied cities; or what actually happened to China? It is completely realistic and particularly relevant to diplo games.

[deity]

I didn't do that to the Serbs cos it was the Middle Ages.

China at this point was producing 10 or so new modern units each turn I'd say; researching nothing; and threatening my Pacific colonies! What's your intelligent dilpomatic response to that situation?

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP

But hell, if you want to play a game of elimination, lets go for it, see how long you last.

So you are saying military win is OK? Well what's the fuss all about?

Basically as players we have trouble dealing with the psychological violation that occurs when civs get killed off.

This IS the real issue here as I intimated earlier - not common sense; OR Rules; OR game expoits.

Let's try and remember the bottom line here. We are playing a game, diplo or otherwise, that is designed for civs to be killed. Let's adjust to that. In diplo games I totally agree that we wait until the end-game era before this occurs.

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP

Its not comparable with my actions in HOTW2 as the treaty I offered Belinda was immediate, unconditional peace. I wasn't demanding she empty out all her cities. I just wanted a promise that she not attack me, she refused, and thus I continued.

In the same way that Belinda refused your offer or deal and you continued your attack, taking out her capital and destroying her civ; I had the same problem with Frank (regardless of the contents of the deal). Belinda refused peace in your case. Frank refused to negotiate and insisted on war and that I do my worst. In fact I think I had more grounds to attack Frank than you did Belinda. She was not a threat like Frank was to me.

[deity]

Here's my beginning of turn auto save.

I haven't checked Ljube's end of turn save but I'll post mine if relevant, later on.

[deity]

I've made a decision.

I want to replicate my turn in accordance with my original plan. Then I want Frank to respond to my post in writing. This means we need to start with this auto save. I suggest I play it out with Raz and maybe Ljube or Berz BEFORE the next session. But Raz (or a 3rd party like Dylan) and I could do it on our own if you prefer. I'll get the cities off Egypt, build the rail to Urumqi and move my attack force to the square above Urumqi (avoiding diplo guiding if you wish). Then save it.

We start the next session with this new save. I take Urumqi and maybe another. Then I take out whatever units I may BUT NOT TAKE ANY OTHER CITIES.

Then my Ultimatum post becomes relevant. It is backed by force and reputation.

It's up to the players in the game to then negotiate this in diplo terms. The howie/armour disbanding is irrelevant because they'll be dead anmyway. This was the plan I decidedc on last week. Let's stick with it.

You can decide whether it's World War; or you can decide to keep all civs in tact and stay tuned to SETI signals...

[Frank Johnson]

People don't seem to like the alien ending thing.

Also, even if whatever agreement is reached, its only a matter of time before someone else gets howie rushed since there is the attitude that deity's actions are ok in terms of a diplo game, IE, total war, and civilization serfdom.

My main regret is that I was not playing toward civ elmination style, which is why it is painful to suffer an elimination style attack. I saw the game as an elbatorate balance of power were one would gain or lose, but never die unless they were as poor off as winzity's country.

I think, definately, I will work on making some kind of modifcation to late game units for future games.

In any case, there is still the issue that seems to be plauging us, is we seem to be playing 6 different games instead of the same one.

I don't see a consensus on how any one wants to proceed. Running a serf state untill deity makes a spaceship is boring, but so is having my civ slashed up in a techincal and play to win manner.

So I'm less pissed off now, but I still dont see where this game is going.

[OzzyKP]

It seemed like everyone was interested in the alien ending. Who isn't?

[Rasputin]

Whilst ozzy certainly wasnt online during my civ carve up by the indians, everyone else was and frank in particular didnt cry foul once when i lost all my asian citys and two of my best citys in the middle east. If berz hadnt responded to diplomatic pressure then all of egypt was his next target and whilst ozzy had promised to do his best to respond, in actuality by the time ozzy would get any troops to asia or africa to help berzwould jhave had another turn and egypt would be gone.

I didnt cry foul bad gamesmanship despite myself only taking two citys and then seeing so many fall. I called for world help got it diplomatically and the war ended with a mutally acceptable peace.

Frank was offered same in this game, he could have agreed to remove his offencive units leaving only defenders in al lhis citys and played on to the alien invasion .

Deity waited for a response and was told continue the war and take more citys by frank and also in king chat by serbs.

The only unprovoked attacks s ofar have been conducted by myself on india, at elast deity was responding to posts in poly from frank regarding a possible attack on his pacific colonies.

Lets forget the past and move on.

finish this game and fix the problems for any future games with weakened howies etc.

I dont support this "only end game wars" , diplo is all about war and threat of war , if i had oppurtunity to repress a civ earleir in game i would have and i know serbs would have too

after finally getting our own diplo civ group we yet again are facing a breakup because people take things the wrong way, its a game lets play on.

if deity wins, it dont mean he a better player, it just means he used diplo to his advantage, and got some lucky breaks.

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
It seemed like everyone was interested in the alien ending. Who isn't?

We all agreed on the alien ending and to introduce those elements when Apollo is built.

In the mean time we agreed to play out the known situation.

I don't think we were all just meant to make peace and wait for the aliens.

[OzzyKP]

No, not just make peace and wait, but not eliminate someone too. By all means attack, by all means conquer, but hopefully all 6 of us can be around to see the end of the game.

[Berzerker]

That's what Raz did to India and then lost half his civ.

Oh geez, I took maybe 6 cities from him and destroyed 2 others. He has something like 40+ cities and most of the cities I attacked were little hamlets and used to be Tartar lands.

[deity]

But the point being that anyone who attacks in a limited way can't be protected from a major counter attack. So who's going to attack me in a limited way? If I get attacked you'd have to take out half my civ to stop a counter attack that might wipe the attacking civ out.

It's a weakness in the game, diplo or otherwise and the discussions on limiting howies is useful.

War4 suggested howies be reduced in attack to 10 or less and movement limited to one ages ago in Rah Rules but it wasn't adopted. Maybe it should be.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Oh geez, I took maybe 6 cities from him and destroyed 2 others. He has something like 40+ cities and most of the cities I attacked were little hamlets and used to be Tartar lands.

they were some of my largest citys .....

provided a alrge s**** of my income and production..

My desert ones were very limited

[OzzyKP]

Lets get a vote right here. Who wants an alien invasion ending that begins with the building of Apollo. Something to avoid bad feelings and a potential destruction of the game.

Ozzy: Yes.
Deity: Yes.
Raz: Yes.
Frank:
Berz:
Ljube:

[deity]

I support alien ending but that doesn't solve the problem of major late game wars.

I've had a think. We are at a defining moment in fine-tuning the diplo game paradigm. Alien invasdion aside we need some rules and settings so that massive civ-killing pre-emptive strikes and/or counter-strikes are more realistic and balanced. I think Frank is right when he said a lot of us were playing a diferent game! We were when you think about it! It's useless leaving this sort of stuff to"judgement" and "common sense". Unless it's cast iron there will always be bad feelings and misunderstandings.

Friendships and Fun.

OK, we change the rules right now!

SUGGEST:
* Howies attack at 10 with 1 movement only
* Get a pike flag that works against howies for something earlier than modern infrantry - say a standard unit like Alpines or even rifes!
* limit cities taken to THREE in any one turn followed by mandatory negotiations and the ceding of two cities back (maybe use a 50% world opinion to enforce the peace treaty if the victim doesn't accept a reasonable deal)
* limit nukes in some way?
range?
if you use a nuke you can only take ONE city in a turn and same deal applies as above

Let's sort this out and get it into the dipo FAQ for all time otherwise HOTW2 and HOTW4 will keep repeating themselves.

[deity]

I'll post a new save I'm doing on my own with some one else on my home network to replicate the first part of my move where I buld the rail and get troops to Urumqi. But I won't attack it and I only plan on a pre-emptive strike of just taking Urumqi only... then the new demand follows....

I'll post a new demand in the story thread and we'll scrap the other one.

We should play with the NEW RULES we agree on before the start of session.

If everyone agrees to this approach or something like it we may make diplo gaming HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!

[deity]

I set up this save. I played my turn part the way through. 'Raz' was upstairs in my wifes bedroom on the other networked PC and ceded me those four cities and we made a temporary alliance So, no guiding issues

I built the rail, and moved a part of my attack force to Urumqi anticipating the new rules.

I think this will be much better, more realistic and no hard feelings! Some of the venom may go out of the game which might be a shame but let's steer this toward the alien ending, but in a way that is true to the original intentions of the civs ignorant of such future prospects.

[Frank Johnson]

You don't have to be a sore winner deity. Shut up already.

[Berzerker]

That does it, find me a permanent replacement

[Berzerker]

[Rasputin]

alien ending ok by me...

or conquest ok by me

[deity]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
You don't have to be a sore winner deity. Shut up already.

LMAO

[deity]

I just tested the howies at 10/2 mvt 1

Didn't notice any difference in the attack but mvt 1 really makes a difference.

Something I depended on with massive attacks generally is the ability to replenish half spent howies by taking emptied cities. With mvt 1 you can't do this.