biblical atrocities, and tigers, and bears, oh my!

[Ben Kenobi]

Eh, I want to reroute some points that came up in the celibacy thread here.

[Az]

Samuel A, Chapter 15, Verses 2-3.

[Ben Kenobi]

Azazel quote:

So is going on a genocide, just because 'a voice' told you so, and we don't do that these days, mmmkay?

Evidence that he cites for this position:

Samuel part A ( don't know how is it called in Christianity), Chapter 15, verses 2-3, for example.

Supporting evidence by cinch:

They warred against Midian, as YAHWEH commanded Moses, and killed every male. They killed the kings of Midian ... And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and they took as booty all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. All their cities in the places where they dwelt, and all their encampments, they burned with fire." (Numbers 31:7)

"Moses was enraged with the officers of the army ... ‘So you spared the women! ... Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man, but keep the virgins for yourselves ... divide them up evenly.'" (Numbers 31:15)

"Thus says YAHWEH of hosts, 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way, when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.'" And Saul came to the city of Amalek, and lay in wait in the valley. And Saul said to the Kenites, "Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them." ... So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. And Saul defeated the Amalekites ... and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword ... And Saul said to Samuel, "I have obeyed the voice of YAHWEH, I have gone on the mission on which YAHWEH sent me, I have brought Agag the king of Amalek , and I have utterly destroyed the Amalekites." (1 Samuel 15:2, 20)

[Az]

The second passage is the one I thought of. It's the one that came to my mind.

[Ben Kenobi]

Starting with your original statement.

A voice, telling people to do things. Do we see this in your example?

Yes, but not just any voice but that of God. I know you are not a Christian, or a Jew, but that to a believer, you do not dismiss the word of God as a voice.

Now, there are two paths you can take. Do you believe that God can speak to people directly through his prophets?

[Az]

Yes, but not just any voice but that of God. I know you are not a Christian, or a Jew, but that to a believer, you do not dismiss the word of God as a voice.

erm, how do you know it's god? It always told that god spoke in a dream, or something fuzzy like that. And if you grow up in a enviroment obsessed about a deity or deities, I would be surprised if people would NOT dream about god, him telling them to do stuff, etc.

Or hallucinating after eating some tainted mushrooms, or whatever. Or going crazy and hearing voices. There are plenty of explanations. Would you believe someone if he'd tell you that he heard god in a dream, and told him to kill sinners?

Since:
a) It's logical that god would want to punish some sinners. Perhaps they were REALLY bad, you know.
b) Why would you not trust his words, but would trust the words of a person that lived some 3000 years earlier, just because he lived in an earlier age.

[Patroklos]

If God is on your side then you are absolved of whatever you do. It is in the Almighties name.

Of course everyone thinks God is on their side and swears up and down God hates the other guys. Hell, there was genecide from people simply argueing over whose side God is on, even before they got to the issue at hand.

Insert "We were Soldier's" prayer here.

[Ben Kenobi]

Azazel:

Gotta cover the bases. Then you do accept that God can speak to people directly, through his prophets.

erm, how do you know it's god?

Does it contradict what he says earlier? What are the motivations behind the action?

There is a good reason why we don't go on crusades, and such today, because of Jesus Christ. There is no need to spread the word of God by the sword, but the situation is different now, then it was for the Israelites 3000 years ago.

You run into the same point, as to why did God pick Israel as his chosen people? You see this in Abraham, that Abraham trusted in God, even though his faith was sorely tested. As a result of that trust, God promised Abraham that he would make him the father of many nations.

God wanted to establish a nation of his people, set apart from the rest of the world, to preserve his word. In order to establish the seperation of this nation of Israel, requires God to give them a homeland. The tribes that live in Canaan, are not going to just leave at the bidding of the Israelites.

However, you see how harsh God is with his own people, before they can enter Canaan, almost all of the older generation, God bars them from entering, allowing the younger one entry.

Lets start with the passage from Numbers:

Numbers 31:1-8

The LORD said to Moses, Take vengeance on the Midanites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.

So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance upon them. So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tirbe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

The fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem,. Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.


Passing on to v.15-18

Have you allowed all the women to live? he asked them. "they were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means for turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

but save your yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Rather than desiring the complete destruction of the Midianites, God spares the blameless from his wrath, not only preserving them, but drawing them into his fold, into the nation of Israel.

Secondly, we see that God orders the destruction of those who did lead his promised nation astray. They were not blameless.

[Ben Kenobi]

Second quote:

1 Samuel 15:1-8

Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD . This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim-two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.

Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.


Again, not all the Amalekites are killed, some are preserved, in the Kenites.

This is a very interesting passage, because if you read further on, you see why God did all this in the first place. God tested Saul, and whether he would trust in the Lord, similar to Abraham's trust in God. Unlike Abraham, Saul failed to live up to the trust, and the slaughter of the Amalekites became one for personal conquest and spoils.

[Arrian]

Have you allowed all the women to live? he asked them. "they were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means for turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

but save your yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Uh - huh. Sure. The Israelites just wanted the virgins for themselves. Kill the men, take the women. Happened all the time.

But GOD told them too, so it was good. Yessiree.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

The Israelites just wanted the virgins for themselves. Kill the men, take the women.

Of course, I wanted to get into the point about Peor, but I had to address the earlier point first.

Why only the virgins? Why are the others defiled?

Numbers 25:1-16

While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD's anger burned against them.

The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD , so that the LORD's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."

So Moses said to Israel's judges, "Each of you must put to death those of your men who have joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor."

Then an Israelite man brought to his family a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of them-through the Israelite and into the woman's body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.

The LORD said to Moses, "Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites; for he was as zealous as I am for my honor among them, so that in my zeal I did not put an end to them. Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites."

The name of the Israelite who was killed with the Midianite woman was Zimri son of Salu, the leader of a Simeonite family. And the name of the Midianite woman who was put to death was Cozbi daughter of Zur, a tribal chief of a Midianite family.

The LORD said to Moses, "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

[Ben Kenobi]

The Israelites just wanted the virgins for themselves. Kill the men, take the women. Happened all the time.

But GOD told them too, so it was good. Yessiree.

Arrian:

Then you are left with a much greater problem. How can you decide anything of what the LORD says to Moses is true? Even the Ten commandments?

[Az]

It's easy. There is no lord. du-h.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Does it contradict what he says earlier? What are the motivations behind the action?

So you expect every (potential) believer/hallucinator to know the entire Bible? And do you believe the Bible is entirely unambiguous?

If the answer to either of those questions is not a resounding yes, you still have the same problem.

And no matter how merciful you try to paint him, he still ordered people killed. How is that compatible with his own commandments? Don't kill, except when I tell you to?

[Az]

Azazel:

Gotta cover the bases. Then you do accept that God can speak to people directly, through his prophets.

erm , yes, if god would exist, he would be able to speak to people directly through his prophets. duh.

Does it contradict what he says earlier? What are the motivations behind the action?

There is a good reason why we don't go on crusades, and such today, because of Jesus Christ. There is no need to spread the word of God by the sword, but the situation is different now, then it was for the Israelites 3000 years ago.

You run into the same point, as to why did God pick Israel as his chosen people? You see this in Abraham, that Abraham trusted in God, even though his faith was sorely tested. As a result of that trust, God promised Abraham that he would make him the father of many nations.

God wanted to establish a nation of his people, set apart from the rest of the world, to preserve his word. In order to establish the seperation of this nation of Israel, requires God to give them a homeland. The tribes that live in Canaan, are not going to just leave at the bidding of the Israelites.

However, you see how harsh God is with his own people, before they can enter Canaan, almost all of the older generation, God bars them from entering, allowing the younger one entry.

Lets start with the passage from Numbers:

Numbers 31:1-8

The LORD said to Moses, Take vengeance on the Midanites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.

So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance upon them. So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tirbe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

The fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem,. Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.


Passing on to v.15-18

Have you allowed all the women to live? he asked them. "they were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means for turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

but save your yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Rather than desiring the complete destruction of the Midianites, God spares the blameless from his wrath, not only preserving them, but drawing them into his fold, into the nation of Israel.

Secondly, we see that God orders the destruction of those who did lead his promised nation astray. They were not blameless.

I don't get your point. How does this justify the genocide of all the others?

Then you are left with a much greater problem. How can you decide anything of what the LORD says to Moses is true? Even the Ten commandments?

ummm.... THERE IS NO GOD?

[cinch]

No, no... The answer is quite simple, really: The Demiurge wished for the Israelites to do murder, and they obliged, for they knew no better.

But then the light, Jesus, came, and shone upon us all, revealing the gnostic truth! Don't trust the demiurge: he is evil! Only follow the new way of Jesus: pacifism.

Moses was a follower of the demiurge; he is evil, do not follow him. Same goes for Noah, Lot, Abrahim, Isaac, David, and the Catholic Church.

So, in closing: Don't follow the bible, because it's full of evil. Follow Christ, for he is of the last pair, and is therefore good. (Preferably the gnostic gospels as well!).

[Ben Kenobi]

How is that compatible with his own commandments? Don't kill, except when I tell you to?

Do not murder is different from do not kill. You will find the former in the commandments, and the latter in your own mind.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Arrian:

Then you are left with a much greater problem. How can you decide anything of what the LORD says to Moses is true? Even the Ten commandments?

That's the whole point, Ben. Once you start looking at the Bible with a little bit of skepticism, analyzing it as you would any other book, the whole damn thing falls apart.

-Arrian

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
[...] and the latter in your own mind.

God is telling it to me.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's easy. There is no lord. du-h.

Irrelevant. You already accepted the presupposition that God exists in order to speak to his prophets. Otherwise, what's the point of condemning God in this instance, and affirming him when he agrees with what you believe?

[Ben Kenobi]

God is telling it to me.

You fall victim to the first point.

So you expect every (potential) believer/hallucinator to know the entire Bible?

No 'potential' about it. Someone who does not believe in God, who recieves a voice, which he accepts as God, is in reality, a believer.

If he is not sure, he will either ask someone who he believes will know, or he will reject the voice as 'impossible.'

Secondly, it is not necessary to know the entire bible in order to know if the voice so to speak agrees with God.

However, you do have a good point, which is why such prophecies need to be carefully considered, not just by the person, but by those with some familiarity with this sort of thing. Elders, or priests do fine.

[Ben Kenobi]

Once you start looking at the Bible with a little bit of skepticism, analyzing it as you would any other book, the whole damn thing falls apart.

I would argue the opposite. Once you get your head bent out of the mold that says such things are impossible, like God speaking to his people, then you can finally make some progress.

Yes, you can analyse, but why should your analysis be anything more than your opinion? Why should it be the truth?

[Az]

Irrelevant. You already accepted the presupposition that God exists in order to speak to his prophets. Otherwise, what's the point of condemning God in this instance, and affirming him when he agrees with what you believe?

You're attacking a strawman. I did not condemn God. My claims are about the actions of the people in the bible, and how something cannot be called moral just because it's in the bible. Another point I made is just because people say that they're contacted by a supernatural being doesn't mean it's true.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Irrelevant. You already accepted the presupposition that God exists in order to speak to his prophets. Otherwise, what's the point of condemning God in this instance, and affirming him when he agrees with what you believe?

No he didn't. He said that if there was a god, he might speak through prophets. That's a pretty large leap of logic you're taking here, BK.

[Arrian]

I would argue the opposite. Once you get your head bent out of the mold that says such things are impossible, like God speaking to his people, then you can finally make some progress.

Yes, you can analyse, but why should your analysis be anything more than your opinion? Why should it be the truth?

It is just my opinion. I am not trying to offer TRUTH, but rather a convincing argument. I consider the concept of a deity such as the God of the Bible to be highly unlikely.

Throughout human history, nations have come up with all sorts of stuff to justify things they want to do.

So some people did things to Israelites they didn't like. The Israelites kill them and take their virgin women. The idea that this was sanctioned by God is, to me, a) highly unlikely; and b) disgusting. So first off, I don't believe in God. But even if I were to suspend my disbelief for a time, my second reaction is to think God is an Almighty Jerk.

-Arrian

p.s. For a modern day example of people justifying things they want to do see: Bush, George W. and "WMD"

[Ben Kenobi]

Full stop.

I need an affirmation from everybody here in the thread, of two things.

1. God exists.

2. He speaks through prophets.

Otherwise, it is pointless to condemn a non-existent God for genocide, and it is also pointless to consider that Moses can speak for God, or that the word of the LORD came to him.

[Arrian]

I need an affirmation from everybody here in the thread, of two things.

1. God exists.

/me leave the thread.

Nevermind. I didn't read the discussion that apparently lead to the creation of this thread, so perhaps my comments are not in the spirit of what Ben was trying to do.

[Ben Kenobi]

how something cannot be called moral just because it's in the bible.

True, there are plenty of immoral actions in the Bible.

Another point I made is just because people say that they're contacted by a supernatural being doesn't mean it's true.

And I fully agree. Where we disagree is that I believe God talked to Moses.

How does this justify the genocide of all the others?

Genocide seeks the complete destruction of a peoples. They would not preserve a portion, nor marry the portion, and bring them into their own families. Ergo, the action cannot be genocide.

[Az]

This is false. I do not need to think that something exists to debate it's supposed ethical value. I must accept that he exists for the sake of a particular arguement about his ethics, but not generally.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I would argue the opposite. Once you get your head bent out of the mold that says such things are impossible, like God speaking to his people, then you can finally make some progress.

Yes, you can analyse, but why should your analysis be anything more than your opinion? Why should it be the truth?

If you accept as possible that one God, Yahweh, can speak to his people, then you also have to accept as possible that all gods might speak to their people, including Marduk, Tammuz, Osiris, Zeus, Mithra, Zoroaster, Wotan, Vishnu, etc.

In that light, why does that lead you any closer to any sort of truth? After all, yoru belief in a particular god and rejection of others is nothing more than an opinion.