February 18, 2004, 15:45
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#1
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Emperor
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Scientists Accuse White House of Distorting Facts
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February 18, 2004
Scientists Accuse White House of Distorting Facts
By JAMES GLANZ
he Bush administration has deliberately and systematically distorted scientific fact in the service of policy goals on the environment, health, biomedical research and nuclear weaponry at home and abroad, a group of about 60 influential scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates, said in a statement issued today.
The sweeping charges were later discussed in a conference call with some of the scientists that was organized by the Union of Concerned Scientists, an independent organization that focuses on technical issues and has often taken stands at odds with administration policy. The organization also issued a 37-page report today that it said detailed the accusations.
Together, the two documents accuse the administration of repeatedly censoring and suppressing reports by its own scientists, stacking advisory committees with unqualified political appointees, disbanding government panels that provide unwanted advice, and refusing to seek any independent scientific expertise in some cases.
"Other administrations have, on occasion, engaged in such practices, but not so systematically nor on so wide a front," the statement from the scientists said, adding that they believed the administration had "misrepresented scientific knowledge and misled the public about the implications of its policies."
The White House had no immediate comment on the statements.
Dr. Kurt Gottfried, an emeritus professor of physics at Cornell University who signed the statement and spoke in the conference call, said the administration had "engaged in practices that are in conflict with the spirit of science and the scientific method." Dr. Gottfried asserted that what he called "the cavalier attitude toward science" could place at risk the basis for the nation's long-term prosperity, health and military prowess.
The scientists denied that they had political motives in releasing the documents as the 2004 presidential race began to take clear shape, a day after Senator John Kerry won the Wisconsin Democratic primary and solidified his position as President Bush's likely opponent in the fall. The organization's report, Dr. Gottfried said, had taken a year to prepare — much longer than originally planned — and had been released as soon as it was ready.
"I don't see it as a partisan issue at all," said Russell Train, who served as administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency under Presidents Richard M. Nixon and Gerald R. Ford, and who spoke in the conference call in support of the statement. "If it becomes that way I think it's because the White House chooses to make it a partisan issue," Mr. Train said.
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from http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/18/sc...D-RESE.html?hp
lying, misrepresentation of facts, manipulation... putting unqualified political appointees on advisery boards... censoring opposition... yup, sounds like the Bush admin 
What really scares me is the mention of nuclear weaponry. Yes, the environment, health, and bio-medical fields are all important... but to distort information about nuclear weapons is sick and twisted beyond belief. It's like we have sadists in the White House. 
Anyone know any of the specifics that these scientists are talking about?
I first heard alarm bells when environmentally unfriendly political appointee Christine Todd-Whitman of the EPA quit because of such practices by the Bush admin. I mean, if someone like Whitman can't even stand what the admin is doing, they must be doing something really horrible.
more to follow
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February 18, 2004, 15:49
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#2
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Deity
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I actually had a similar reaction to Whitman's resignation. Then again, for all I know she could have resigned for some personal reason (I didn't actually read up on it or anything).
I'm not sure that calling Whitman "environmentally unfriendly" is fair, by the way. Are you basing that on the facts that she is a Republican and former governor of NJ, or on her record in office?
-Arrian
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February 18, 2004, 15:51
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#3
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Emperor
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Quote:
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or on her record in office?
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this one...
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February 18, 2004, 15:52
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#4
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King
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Why should I believe these scientists? How do I know they are not lying about the Bush admin?
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'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
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February 18, 2004, 15:52
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#5
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King
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Yes Sava,
Lets get to the specifics, and the timing of this so called release after the Wisconsin primary and Dean withdrawing was simple a coinsidence, r...........i...............g..................... .h.........................t.
What did Bush do, decide to cut funding for examining mold growing on cheese to piss these guys off.
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Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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February 18, 2004, 15:54
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#6
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King
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diplomat, why should you believe the bush admin?
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"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
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February 18, 2004, 15:56
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#7
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King
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for that matter why should we believe anybody..........................
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Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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February 18, 2004, 16:03
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#8
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Deity
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Quote:
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Originally posted by The diplomat
Why should I believe these scientists? How do I know they are not lying about the Bush admin?
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Because their conclusions are peer reviewed.
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"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
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February 18, 2004, 16:05
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#9
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Emperor
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Why should I believe these scientists? How do I know they are not lying about the Bush admin?
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uhmmm because they are really really really smart...
defiant: yes, let's believe the bush admin over the word of 60 scientists... 10 NOBEL LAUREATES...
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February 18, 2004, 16:06
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#10
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by MRT144
diplomat, why should you believe the bush admin?
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Show me proof that the Bush admin distorted scientific facts for political reasons, and I'll believe the scientists.
But unlike Sava and the Left, I am not going to automatically assume that Bush is lying just cause somebody says so.
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
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February 18, 2004, 16:07
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#11
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Emperor
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Quote:
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But unlike Sava and the Left, I am not going to automatically assume that Bush is lying just cause somebody says so.
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wow your really really live in a strange little world...
this isn't just SOMEONE... it's probably 60 of the smartest people in the country. 10... yes 10 NOBEL LAUREATES.
Maybe if I repeat that enough, you will comprehend.
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February 18, 2004, 16:08
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#12
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
uhmmm because they are really really really smart...
defiant: yes, let's believe the bush admin over the word of 60 scientists... 10 NOBEL LAUREATES...
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Just because they are scientists, does not mean that they can't lie. Scientists are people too, with political biases like everyone else!
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
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February 18, 2004, 16:08
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#13
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
uhmmm because they are really really really smart...
defiant: yes, let's believe the bush admin over the word of 60 scientists... 10 NOBEL LAUREATES...
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Yes, because they are NOBEL LAUREATES, they have no political views  , lets get to the specifics and then see what other scientists have to say about their claims, fair and balanced baby, you know the term. 
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Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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February 18, 2004, 16:11
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#14
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Warlord
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Says 20 not 10...
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It’s a great art, is rowing. It’s the finest art there is. It’s a symphony of motion. And when you reach perfection, you are touching the divine. It touches the you of yous – which is your soul. George Pocock
What fun is that? Why all that hard, exhausting work? Where does it get you? What is the good of it? It is one of the strange ironies of life that those who work the hardest, who subject themselves to the strictest discipline, who give up certain pleasurable things in order to achieve a goal, are the happiest. Brutus Hamilton
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February 18, 2004, 16:12
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#15
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King
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What? Sava make a mistake, so it isn't so, crap makes me worse, I followed his lead. 
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Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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February 18, 2004, 16:12
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#16
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
wow your really really live in a strange little world...
this isn't just SOMEONE... it's probably 60 of the smartest people in the country. 10... yes 10 NOBEL LAUREATES.
Maybe if I repeat that enough, you will comprehend.
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Of course they are super smart and well-educated. So? Just because they are super smart, doesn't mean that they can't have biases or personal motivations to lie.
Smart people can lie too you know.
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
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February 18, 2004, 16:12
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#17
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Deity
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
wow your really really live in a strange little world...
this isn't just SOMEONE... it's probably 60 of the smartest people in the country. 10... yes 10 NOBEL LAUREATES.
Maybe if I repeat that enough, you will comprehend.
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YOU ARE WRONG!!!
The article says 20.
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"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
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February 18, 2004, 16:13
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#18
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Emperor
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Quote:
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"I don't see it as a partisan issue at all," said Russell Train, who served as administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency under Presidents Richard M. Nixon and Gerald R. Ford, and who spoke in the conference call in support of the statement. "If it becomes that way I think it's because the White House chooses to make it a partisan issue," Mr. Train said.
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Those Nixon demopinkocommielefties!
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If you don't like reality, change it! me
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February 18, 2004, 16:13
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#19
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Just because they are scientists, does not mean that they can't lie. Scientists are people too, with political biases like everyone else!
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Originally posted by Defiant
Yes, because they are NOBEL LAUREATES, they have no political views , lets get to the specifics and then see what other scientists have to say about their claims, fair and balanced baby, you know the term.
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I'm starting to notice something about right-wingers. I mean, some people think liberals are crackpot conspiracists... but man... you should hear yourselves...
Instead of trying to present information to support your point of view... you guys just say "OMFG the scientists are politically biased."
gee, I wonder what kind of bias a former NIXON and FORD administration official has...
I'm amazed that people still harp on the same bs responses to everything that illustrates their side is wrong.
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February 18, 2004, 16:13
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#20
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King
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__________________
Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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February 18, 2004, 16:14
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#21
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Emperor
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defiant, diplomat... you guys are hopeless.
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February 18, 2004, 16:16
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#22
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
defiant, diplomat... you guys are hopeless.
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Sorry Sava that we don't believe your half-trueths, and incomplete information, we just ain't those sheep you want to herd. 
__________________
Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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February 18, 2004, 16:16
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#23
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Deity
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I'm sure these scientist probably have lobbyist motives, but I doubt they are lying or exaggerating. They aren't politicians.
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"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
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February 18, 2004, 16:19
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#24
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Emperor
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February 18, 2004, 16:20
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#25
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Big Crunch
I'm sure these scientist probably have lobbyist motives, but I doubt they are lying or exaggerating. They aren't politicians.
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Big Crunch,
We will never know until Sava or someone prints the report itself and then find other scientists to rebut and then see if the rebuttle can stand up as legit, but hell, we don't even have the 37 pages to review but we are supposed to all beat up on Bush without knowing the content of this claim. If you are that gullable I have some land in Louisana I would like to sell you. 
__________________
Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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February 18, 2004, 16:23
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#26
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Defiant
Sorry Sava that we don't believe your half-trueths, and incomplete information, we just ain't those sheep you want to herd.
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Well, you are sheep, and you're used to herding. You just mistaken wolves for sheepdogs.
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Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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February 18, 2004, 16:23
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#27
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Deity
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What am I supposed to be gullible of? And where have I beat up on Bush?
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"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
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February 18, 2004, 16:24
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#28
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King
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You are right Che,
The sheperd that leads me to more of my money back in my pocket and kicks you commies out of my country.
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Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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February 18, 2004, 16:24
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#29
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Emperor
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Quote:
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We will never know until Sava or someone prints the report itself and then find other scientists to rebut and then see if the rebuttle can stand up as legit, but hell, we don't even have the 37 pages to review but we are supposed to all beat up on Bush without knowing the content of this claim. If you are that gullable I have some land in Louisana I would like to sell you
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I think Big Crunch is one of those educated people who recognize when something is probably credible.
He's obviously not a right-wing conspiracy theory nut.
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February 18, 2004, 16:26
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#30
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Big Crunch
What am I supposed to be gullible of? And where have I beat up on Bush?
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Big Crunch,
Review the article, it only says Bush is bad, no specific claims yet, but Sava right away is branding Bush, wouldn't want to know why?
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Lets always remember the passangers on United Flight 93, true heroes in every sense of the word!
(Quick! Someone! Anyone! Sava! Come help! )-mrmitchell
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