How do armies really work?

lethe · February 19, 2004, 14:18

I always thought that if I stuck 3 Elite* Cavalry in an army I'd basically get a Cavalry with 15hps. Some posts have led me to believe others think you get an 18 attack, 9 defense, 15hp unit.

Which is it? Do the attack/defense values stack, or do you just get a super-hp unit?

vmxa1 · February 19, 2004, 15:58

You are correct, sticking 3 elites would yield 15 HPs. Having a military acad will boost the stats. So you get a boost from being in an army and another from the MA. I think it is 1/3 and 1/6, but I am not sure. Someone will be along to give the full details or you can look for a thread on it.

Rhothaerill · February 19, 2004, 16:07

Where's Theseus when you need him? He'll explain everything.

Arrian · February 19, 2004, 16:31

This is the way I understand it:

The military academy brings the bonus to 1/4 instead of the base 1/6. I could be wrong. But this is what I thought it was.

So, add attack values of units in army (in the case of 3x cav, this is 18). Divide by 6 or 4 (depending on whether or not you have the mil acad). Round down. Add to attack factor. Ditto with defense.

An 3x elite cav army is 9.4.4. or 10.5.4.

The Pentagon allow the extra unit, and you get a 20hp (if all are elites) 12.6.4 monster.

-Arrian

gunkulator · February 19, 2004, 16:56

Wow! I knew armies were improved, but didn't know the details.

IIRC, you also get +1 movement and the ability to blitz (i.e. attack more than once per turn) with armies. It sure would be nice if these updated stats were displayed when you clicked on the unit. I think movement is, but not att/def strength.

Makes building the MA and even the HE actually worthwhile. I used to wait to build MA, if I built it at all, after Factories, and even then I sometimes wouldn't bother unless I lucked out and could also build Ironworks first. Alas, C3C has made Ironworks a pretty rare thing.

Fatwreck · February 19, 2004, 17:44

lethe, remember that this boost only exist in C3C

Arrian · February 19, 2004, 17:53

Quote:

Originally posted by gunkulator
Wow! I knew armies were improved, but didn't know the details.

IIRC, you also get +1 movement and the ability to blitz (i.e. attack more than once per turn) with armies. It sure would be nice if these updated stats were displayed when you clicked on the unit. I think movement is, but not att/def strength.

Makes building the MA and even the HE actually worthwhile. I used to wait to build MA, if I built it at all, after Factories, and even then I sometimes wouldn't bother unless I lucked out and could also build Ironworks first. Alas, C3C has made Ironworks a pretty rare thing.

Again, I'm not positive about this (I haven't actually TESTED it, which is the only way, since the A/D stats do not show in-game).

Armies do get +1 move, blitz, and free pillage (pillage w/o using a movement point. Somebody has pointed out that this means a Conquistador Army could pillage 8 tiles at a time - 3moves, ATR, free pillage. I'm not counting the tile it begins on).

I always built the M.A. if I had the chance, if only to use the armies as prebuilds.

Oh, and I lucked out in my current game: Ironworks in my Forbidden Palace city.

-Arrian

lethe · February 19, 2004, 18:02

Thank you Arrian.

Mad Bomber · February 19, 2004, 19:08

Arrian:

Do not look past the fact that the armies also heal much faster if they are located in a city with a barracks. In my Pre-C3C games I would often have my armies stuck in cities for up to 5 turns just licking their wounds. Now armies heal in 1-2 turns and they are much more useful.

I have never had the IW in either an FP or palace city, although I do try to build the MA in the IW city to crank out those armies.

vmxa1 · February 19, 2004, 21:29

I think that the healing boost is a huge factor. In a city wiht a barracks they heal the same as any unit.

Arrian · February 20, 2004, 16:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Arrian:

Do not look past the fact that the armies also heal much faster if they are located in a city with a barracks. In my Pre-C3C games I would often have my armies stuck in cities for up to 5 turns just licking their wounds. Now armies heal in 1-2 turns and they are much more useful.

I have never had the IW in either an FP or palace city, although I do try to build the MA in the IW city to crank out those armies.

I once got an IW right next to my FP that was capable of 100spt (with factory & hoover), and built the MA there. 4-turn armies, like clockwork. It was PTW, so those armies weren't quite as impressive as they would be now, but it was still cool.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · February 20, 2004, 17:59

I like armies in CivIII and PTW, now I love them. They were the only way to hold my own on Sid. If the AI used them, it would be a frightening sight.

Jaybe · February 20, 2004, 18:12

Quote:

... If the AI used them, it would be a frightening sight.

Yes, the AI should use Armies, even if we have to go down a difficulty level. (Geez, and I recently started my FIRST Monarch game.)

Rommel2D · February 21, 2004, 00:22

How does this work with hybrid armies? I got my first MGL at an awkward time and tried out 2 midieval infantry with a [edit:musketman]. The stats show 3.3.2, but it seems to attack better than that. Are the displayed stats the base that the bonus modifiers are added to?

vmxa1 · February 21, 2004, 03:14

Yes the bonus is applied to the base stats, except the move bonus is reflected in the army numbers. So that army will have 2 movement instead of one.

vmxa1 · February 21, 2004, 03:15

BTW this is another one of those things that is not documents well. You cannot get the data out of the editor either as the MA just says increases the value of amies.

That is nice, but why not tell us how much?

Aqualung71 · February 21, 2004, 11:23

Basically with the MA and Pentagon built, a 4-unit army has its attack and defence values doubled, extra movement, blitz and pillage. They are awesome now with C3C and you will find a lot more players amassing large numbers of armies than they perhaps did in PTW.

Also as vmxa1 points out, the healing improvement is vast, which means that you usually only need to pause for one turn for your army to heal during a major invasion and you're cooking with gas to continue your invasion at full strength.

This also makes the use of MGL's pretty much a no-brainer (with the one exception of the rushing of your FP).

Rommel2D · February 21, 2004, 19:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Armies do get +1 move, blitz, and free pillage (pillage w/o using a movement point. Somebody has pointed out that this means a Conquistador Army could pillage 8 tiles at a time - 3moves, ATR, free pillage. I'm not counting the tile it begins on).
-Arrian

Just noticed armies also get a sighting range of 2?

Jaybe · February 21, 2004, 19:48

Yes, Armies have Radar.

vmxa1 · February 21, 2004, 22:10

I sw that in the editor, but failed to realize it was a bonus to sighting.

Solomwi · February 28, 2004, 20:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian

I once got an IW right next to my FP that was capable of 100spt (with factory & hoover), and built the MA there. 4-turn armies, like clockwork. It was PTW, so those armies weren't quite as impressive as they would be now, but it was still cool.

-Arrian

Along those lines, playing with Germany, I just finished my factory in Smolensk (the Russians got uppity early and my FP wound up in Moscow

), which built Hoover's the turn before and already held my MA. Pop a few workers in and boom, 4 turn armies there, too. As soon as this dang police station finishes, I'm going to start churning them out... just in time for my Panzers to make all those cavs obsolete.

Theseus · March 7, 2004, 13:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Rommel2D
How does this work with hybrid armies? I got my first MGL at an awkward time and tried out 2 midieval infantry with a [edit:musketman]. The stats show 3.3.2, but it seems to attack better than that. Are the displayed stats the base that the bonus modifiers are added to?

Arrian covered the basics quite nicely.

For mixed unit Armies, the bonus is applied to each unit sequentially. So, using your example (pre-Mil Academy), on offense each MedInf would attack with 5 followed by the Musket at 3, and on defense the Musket would defend with 5 followed by each MedInf at 3.

Akaoz · March 7, 2004, 19:37

So, in a mixed army, the unit animation that is doing the fighting has no real effect on the battle? The A/D values are now just averages? Right?

Also, what happens if you put a SAM unit with an army?

Akaoz · March 7, 2004, 19:44

Am I right in figuring that 4 Modern Armor amount to:

24+(24*4/4)=48 Attack
16+(16*4/4)=32 Defense
3+1=4 Move

With Blitz, Radar and insta heal inside a city with barracks?

48.32.4 that ain't half bad. Esp with 20HP...

Rommel2D · March 7, 2004, 20:47

From what Theseus just posted, the animations have everything to do with the battle. Each unit uses it's own base A/D values, modified by the bonus calculation. This seems to agree with my experience. I think the animation also indicates which unit is tested for a promotion if the battle is won.

Continuing my example, when I added a third MedInf, the attack bonus increased to +2, while defense remained +1? If I had added another musketman instead, it would have been +2 for both?

Akaoz · March 7, 2004, 21:37

Ah! I just got it now. *feels dumb*

Theseus · March 9, 2004, 21:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Rommel2D
Continuing my example, when I added a third MedInf, the attack bonus increased to +2, while defense remained +1? If I had added another musketman instead, it would have been +2 for both?

Correct for both questions, which is a good point. I think the real question is the intended use of the Army... I'll typically try to hold off and add a Rifle or Infantry to those ones.

Rommel2D · March 10, 2004, 01:15

The first intention was to get my Epic. Then it was my spearhead unit to crack open AI cities as I systematically rolled over them. I had a few other pure cav armies by the point of the pentagon, so this one wasn't that useful anyway.

It seems like the epic game was won once I got an army, moreso than compared to previous PtW games also played at Emperor. I agree with your sig Theseus, the AI needs to make some use of armies. I don't agree with the Amphibious request, armies don't need any more buffing!

[Just to clarify, armies don't have any amphibious ability now do they? Its not clear if you're talking about inheriting the ability for pure armies, or just extending it to hybrid berserk/marine ones.]

Arrian · March 10, 2004, 12:08

Just the hybrids. As I understand it, a pure berserk or pure marine army is amphibious, but if you mix the two units it ISN'T amphibious.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · March 10, 2004, 14:03

That is how I heard it works. Never made one though.