Emporer Ancient Era - How do you balance needs? - Page 2

planetfall · February 23, 2004, 11:58

Interesting. From this game and your comments it looks like I didn't have to worry too much about balance of defense and expansion in ancient game.

This is a weird game. One civ, Rome, was placed on Northern tundra coast. They could not expand to size 3, thus no settlers. I have never seen such a poor location before. This explains why they had 4-6 units marching across the land early. They tried an attack on Aztecs and failed. They never tried anything else but building spearman.

I don't know if others experience the same evaluation of Emperor, but it feels all wrong. With previous jumps in difficulty level, the game stayed interesting. Here the game is losing a lot of interest as it is becoming more like SimCity. Granted I may have goofed and stayed in builder mode all the way thru the Ancient Era. Now I am at the beginning of the Industrial Era and it is still very frustrating.

Currently there are 3 main civs and 3 minsicule ones. Iroquois are the biggest with their occupation of the largest continent after destroying the Babs. I have 2/3rd of a Y shaped continent with Mayans holding the vertical bar of the Y. Since I had 2 legs and they only had 1, I thought I could use cavs and cannons vs their musketmen.

Yeah, but 1 turn before I was ready to give it a try, Mayans A-- upgraded 88 musketmen to riflemen, and B-- entered a MPP with Iroquois. I didn't like the
MPP but it was the mass upgrade that was a killer. I had 12 cannons I thought I could upgrade to art's and still make a go of it. Opps, 130/unit. Not enough cash. I am nick and tuck with Iroquis in techs and can't afford to do this until I get my factories built.

Boy, production is a real problem with this level. I used 6 Forts, but miscalculated and had to rebuild 2 of them as I had missed a couple of tiles.

Anyway, the issue for me now is not surviving the Ancient Era. It is more how do you keep this level of game interesting and not just another Simcity type of game where you hope to eek out a score win.

I figure I can eliminate Mayans fairly soon. I am just waiting for Electronics before trying to trigger anything. For Mayans my plan is to offer poor deals, resind MPP with Mayan, make MPP with Iroquois- not because they will help but to stop the trade between Iroquois and Maya, build a few fortresses, etc. If all else fails, declare and go for it. My problem is I am in Democracy and Iroquois is Fascist. Maya is demo also, but they have Fascism tech and I don't. This should keep me busy until the end of the Industrial Era.

But then what, I will have the smaller of 2 continents. It will be me and Iroquois. They are ahead in almost all stats on F11 screen. Every once in a while I bump into lead for a turn or two, and then they recover. I have 0 navy. It is a long distance to other continent, something like 4 turns with transports, when they arrive. Iroquois has 50 frigates now. Granted not show stopper but annoying. They are about 800 ahead of me in score. I'll play it out but my guess is it will come down to another nuclear stalemate game which I will lose as I can't gain on score and only winnable options for this game are: 1. score, or 2. conquest. The other options are turned off.

== PF

Krill · February 23, 2004, 12:51

post the latest save that you have, and maybe somebody else can help you. Since I have never been that far into an emperor game, any advice of mine is null and void.

planetfall · February 23, 2004, 13:30

Yeah, I know it is all too wordy. The obvious big mistake I made was not helping Babylon enough so Iroquois would not have all of the big continent.

I will see if I can post screen shots later. I was running late this am.

PF

vmxa1 · February 23, 2004, 13:34

I don't know what is meant by SimCity. I never played the game.
One of the things that can happen at Emp is that a civ on a large land mass will get very big and become a serious problem.

If you are on a decent size land mass you need to take it all during the ancient and middle ages. You can then either go after the KAI or go for a space shot while fending them off.

The danger in C3C is leathal bombardment. The AI will start sending bombers over that can destory things.

It is hard to outscore the AI at the point you are. This is because they have more land and probably had more of the ancient and middle age wonders.

If you got to parity in land and then got the industrial wonders and all modern wonders, you could pull ahead.

planetfall · February 23, 2004, 14:37

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
I don't know what is meant by SimCity. I never played the game.

It's like terrain management on steroids. You build:
--homes, businesses
-- roads, highways, airports
-- electric lines, water lines
-- terrain: up/down 3 levels
--landmarks
You have to keep sims happy or they leave and you lose score.

You play for score not versus anyone else.

Quote:

One of the things that can happen at Emp is that a civ on a large land mass will get very big and become a serious problem.

Amen, amen, amen.

Quote:

If you are on a decent size land mass you need to take it all during the ancient and middle ages. You can then either go after the KAI or go for a space shot while fending them off.

Yeah that was initial plan but Mayas got Leonard and with every tech jump would mass upgrade. Ugh. My production was hindered by wars while they just went for more and more.

Quote:

The danger in C3C is leathal bombardment. The AI will start sending bombers over that can destory things.

Unless they get way way more than at monarch level, not worried. What with new FLAK, should be even. Remember that thread that said 4 FLAK is an ideal number. This AI strategy should work in my favor as FLAK will cut heavily into Bomber cost effectiveness.

There is a poorly written new book out, "Fox on the Rhine", which preports to say what would happen to B17's if the ME262 was given the go ahead. We don't have ME262's here, but we can make it too expensive for AI to win via bombers only.

Quote:

It is hard to outscore the AI at the point you are. This is because they have more land and probably had more of the ancient and middle age wonders.

If you got to parity in land and then got the industrial wonders and all modern wonders, you could pull ahead.

Iroqouis just got most land. After I get Mayans, I should get most land. Actually one of the few bright spots is I am ahead in MFG. The only hope I can see is to get Hoovers. Oh, and maybe I can MM better than AI. I will play it out, but right now it seems very very close.

I did get Smith, but not Leonard, Bach, SzuTzu, Copericuus, Magellan, or Shakespeare. Mayans have Leonard, so that is a bright spot.

PF

vmxa1 · February 23, 2004, 15:07

Ok, I miss understood. I thought you had said the other contient was much bigger than yours.

planetfall · February 23, 2004, 15:14

Well it's hard to tell. My continent is fully populated. The other is much like a fat upside W missing one arm. It has not yet been fully populated. I was #1 in land until Iroquois took last 2 Bab cities. Maya has about 9 cities, but they are medium density. Iroquois newly conquered land is widely populated. Maybe I was wrong and the two continents are about the same size. I will try to get a screen shot for you tomorrow.

PF

vmxa1 · February 23, 2004, 15:22

Quote:

Originally posted by planetfall

Unless they get way way more than at monarch level, not worried. What with new FLAK, should be even. Remember that thread that said 4 FLAK is an ideal number. This AI strategy should work in my favor as FLAK will cut heavily into Bomber cost effectiveness.

There is a poorly written new book out, "Fox on the Rhine", which preports to say what would happen to B17's if the ME262 was given the go ahead. We don't have ME262's here, but we can make it too expensive for AI to win via bombers only.

It all depends on the map. What I have seen is that is you have one contient and the KAI has the other, it will be hard to cover all of the targets.

They will have a number of sites that can reach some of your cities and they will have carriers. You can shoot down planes from time to time and maybe hunt down the carries. I tend to have a small navy so that is harder for me to pull off. I am rethinking my naval policies for non pangea maps now.

Anyway, I found flak to be very ineffective and moblile sams to be only fair. The KAI will likely run a dozen bombers at a site. That will be very painful, until you slow them down.

The level has some impact as the AI gets a cost factor that yields a 20% boost. In Monarch it is 10%. The other thing is that at monarch, you do not see KAI's as readily.

I am only guessing, but I suspect it is due to the human being able to bring the game under control sooner at monarch.
At levels above that the AI has ttime enough and bonus enough to run over its neighbors and get a tech lead that lets it hold off the human for a time.

This was less so in PTW, but the increase in research cost and other factors has made it more common now.

So in short, yes the level of Emp will probably mean bombardment will be much harsher than you are use to seeing.

Now like the EPA, you mileage may vary and I may be the only one who sees it this way.

vmxa1 · February 23, 2004, 15:25

I just noticed your avatar. Did you change it recently? Looks good.

planetfall · February 23, 2004, 15:51

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

It all depends on the map. What I have seen is that is you have one contient and the KAI has the other, it will be hard to cover all of the targets.

They will have a number of sites that can reach some of your cities and they will have carriers. You can shoot down planes from time to time and maybe hunt down the carries. I tend to have a small navy so that is harder for me to pull off. I am rethinking my naval policies for non pangea maps now.

Anyway, I found flak to be very ineffective and moblile sams to be only fair. The KAI will likely run a dozen bombers at a site. That will be very painful, until you slow them down.

Remember here the key is to stack them. You need at least 3 or 4, no more. Any more are wasted. With RR's you don't need that many to put the hurt on carrier bombers.

Quote:

This was less so in PTW, but the increase in research cost and other factors has made it more common now.

So in short, yes the level of Emp will probably mean bombardment will be much harsher than you are use to seeing.

Now like the EPA, you mileage may vary and I may be the only one who sees it this way.

In PTW AI bombardment was a non factor. I usually have extremely small navy until DDay. Then my normal build is:
-- airports in all cities

Coast cities
~~~~~~~~~~~
-- DS, Cruisers
-- BS
-- Carriers

I keep building until I have at least par with best AI or until I have at least one task force. Typical task force is
4 DS {8 if AI has known subs}
3 BS
3 Cruisers
4 Carriers
7 transports

Inland cities
~~~~~~~~~~~~
-- one bomber/airport
-- one fighter/3 bombers
-- 4 bombers/carrier fleet
-- about 8 reserve bombers

AI bombers are small threat. They can only put 4 on a carrier and rarely have massed carriers. My coastal bombers love to take on their carriers.

For my fleet, one carrier is just fighters on AS. AI bomber lethal bombardment is balanced by AA of most sea units.

I don't care if AI has more ships, I only need more power at the DDay spot. Once DDay gets started they lose interest in the naval/air war on my continent.

Again, this works perfectly below Emperor. Since this is my first real Emperor game, I will have to see how it goes, but don't expect too much trouble as long as I can stay close in techs and production ability.

Oh, did I mention, I just got infantry. I'm about 2 techs ahead. ;-)

== PF

PS Have not updated Avatar in ages. Same old one. Some day I was thinking of finishing it and putting a world horizon in the foreground. The idea is the sweaping planets are falling into the target world.

vmxa1 · February 23, 2004, 18:03

If you have a decent navy then it will not be a big problem.

Bombardment in PTW was useless for the AI and is was not lethal, it is in C3C.

RR will not be much use unless you have only one or two target cities. This is because the AI knows what you have and will hit where they ain't if it can reach them. If it cannot reach multiple targets, you are good to go. If you have enough batteries to deal with the attacks, you are good to go.

What has happened to me is two large contients are close to each other. This provides scores of targets. I would need several hundreds of flak or mobile sams to protect them all at the same time. Many of these cities where captured and quite corrupt, so I could not afford to get a sam in all of the them, only a few.

When the AI hits one city , I moved extra units to it. The AI hit a defferent city. I did not want to invade as it was late in the game and I was going to launch. I had to nuke them a few times to bring them to the peace table.

Anyway it sounds like you have the navy to deal with it. I may want to alter my play to get a larger navy in time for games that are going to get to flight.

planetfall · February 23, 2004, 18:36

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
If you have a decent navy then it will not be a big problem.

Since I often end up in later battles, Navy is required for cross continent safe invasions.

Quote:

Bombardment in PTW was useless for the AI and is was not lethal, it is in C3C.

Pull out that old memory of my games. Initially I had a modded game where you were surprised Bombers had lethal bombardment. This is was pre-PTW. ;-) Old stuff for me, even though it is new for many.

Quote:

RR will not be much use unless you have only one or two target cities. This is because the AI knows what you have and will hit where they ain't if it can reach them. If it cannot reach multiple targets, you are good to go. If you have enough batteries to deal with the attacks, you are good to go.

What has happened to me is two large contients are close to each other. This provides scores of targets. I would need several hundreds of flak or mobile sams to protect them all at the same time. Many of these cities where captured and quite corrupt, so I could not afford to get a sam in all of the them, only a few.

When the AI hits one city , I moved extra units to it. The AI hit a defferent city. I did not want to invade as it was late in the game and I was going to launch. I had to nuke them a few times to bring them to the peace table.

Anyway it sounds like you have the navy to deal with it. I may want to alter my play to get a larger navy in time for games that are going to get to flight.

Additional comments:

1. Navies are expenive. Now I get commercial docks before air.
2. Navies take time to build. The build order that works is
a. navy
b. air, coast defense
c. air, carrier fleet
d. army
3. I have only used 70% water, so have not had lands close to each other, might not work with closer lands. Usual water gap transport takes 2 to 5 turns, depending on land mass.
4. If continents are that close together, you need SAMS. One SAM will attack all incoming bombers until it is eliminated.
5. RR's help for carrier defense as you can move faster than carriers.
6. Nukes are much much more effective if you have at least one unit to move into the nuked city.

got to run later,

pf

planetfall · February 24, 2004, 11:44

Here is what world looked like at beginning of middle ages.

Purple in middle is Iroquois.
Dark Blue in middle is Babylon.
Red Spot is one city Rome.
Medium blue with cities is Germany.
Yellow is Zulu.
Pink is Inca.
Orange is Portugal.
Cyan is Maya.

I had hoped to get further in Ancient Era but production and growth was such a problem for me I just could not do it.

PF

planetfall · February 24, 2004, 13:06

Ok, here is current view.

Maya just finished sacrificing 80 units in 2 stacks by advancing straight north to the city hub surrounded by 7 cities. Middle of the expansion past the choke point. Most of them were junk, but the three cities their side of the choke point seemed like cherry picks with only one ancient cav in each city.

Current game situation:

Techs-- just got motorized trans. After getting Hoover I was about 2.5 techs ahead in primary tree, but no Fascism, espionage, Free Art, or Navigation. Lead is disappearing slowly. Now about 1.8 techs ahead of Iroquois.

Continent-- Obviously 10 Mayan cities on south of continent will have to go.

Scoring-- about 200 points behind Iroquois and gaining about 4 points per turn. I think this is about turn 32#, but not sure. AD16##.

Iroquois have RR'ed mostof the purple continent and are finishing putting in coal plants. MMP with Iroquois worked in 1. knocking them out of democracy into fascism and in removing one luxury trade. They have the most population and about 200 infantry. Germany has just less than 50 infantry. Guess who's weak ;-)

Not sure what strategy to use for rest of game
Predecision point is to use army to secure rest of continent. But then what?

My analysis--
1. two continents are about 2-3 transport turns apart, so Navy will be important and bombers can not strike from one contient to the other.
Advantage-- even.
2. two big islands to south are not needed but if occupied by Iroquois, then Germany will be vulnerable to land based bomber attacks and will have a long front to protect.
Advantage-- Iroquois
3. Iroquois have 40 cities, Germany has 65 cities. Germany city spacing is mixed: a few OpenCityPlacement and most overlapping. Iroquois is primary OCP.
Advantage-- Iroquois. {They are #1 in production on F11 screen}
4. Ease of expansion. Iroquois have a 2 turn trip to big islands and Germany has a one turn trip to big islands.
Advantage-- Germany.
5. Score-- Germany is slowing gaining on leader Iroquois. It is unclear if this pace can continue. But if it can, then game will end with slight Germany lead.
Advantage--Germany
6. Techs-- Germany has slight lead in key techs, but without Fascism will have to drop down to Commie or Monarchy for WWIII.
Advantage--even.

Summary: game is very close to tie, neither Iroquois nor Germany has outstanding lead.

Ok, so what to do about that?

Incremental Growth Option
This strategy would take the big islands after the rest of the continent primarily to deny Iroquois a land based site for bombing runs. After taking big islands, DDay could come from A_ north mini islands, B_ West Germany, or C_ western big island.

Advantages:
-- easy to do
Disadvantages
-- longer time at war. WW will definitely kick in and thus need to either switch to commie or research Fascism and use Fascism. I don't trust getting Fascism from Mayans.
-- more time for Iroquois to make unbreakable continent

Bypass Big Islands Option
This would focus on distracting AI and trying to knock down it's productivity. Create a DDay force and go in from West Germany or mini Islands.

Advantages:
-- takes the battle to Iroquois faster
Disadvantages:
-- may not have any lead after get Fascism tech
-- RR'ed 200 infantry could be just a bit of a problem.
-- Iroquois would probably make MPP/invade Maya and I would have
a two front war.

Attached is current game image.

So, what strategy would you use?

== PF

UnOrthOdOx · February 24, 2004, 14:00

Do you have a preferred method of winning?

You could hole up and try for a spaceship at this point.

Personally, I would head south and take all of the homeland, not neccessarily the other islands, then take the fight to the Iriquois with a massive navy, Carriers, and Bombers, perhaps even Marines to punch a hole directly into a city to land and move out tanks that turn.

Don't underestimate Communism.

If prepared for, it can be quite good for war, especially given your size.

Trick is to try to have courts everywhere and Police stations where possible before the switch.

Don't be afraid of the pop rush, USE it. Conquer a city, pop-rush a temple, draft some defenders, and move on to the next one.

planetfall · February 24, 2004, 14:18

UnOrthodox,

Only 2 victory conditions: score, conquest. That tell you what I think of spaceship victory. Did once, and now it's the old song "been there, done that", extremely borinnnnng.

Posting a puzzle like this makes me stop and think about what to do rather than just pushing petal to the metal.

Currently don't like invasion from north because of delay. More I think about it I don't see value is smaller big island. Damage Iroquois could do is limited by range.

Thinking now, plan will be:
-- rest of continent
-- western big island
and then reevaluate. The key strength of Iroquois is in the southern middle of the snake. Without looking at terrain, NNE looks good and so does the Eastern point with 2 cities on it.

I think in Modern Era I need to beeline to Internet as I keep on losing the tech race progress. I'm thinking it is more important to get Robotics than synthetic fibers. Hopefully by that time, AI will have ecology at least and make that cheaper.

The only reason I can think of taking small island is if there is a resource there the Mayans insist on trading.

Don't think I need Marines yet. I have found it more effective to bring along a couple of settlers for cities and workers for airfields than taking cities. By that time I will be either fascist, hopefully, or monarch.
I think fascism gives slightly better researching than monarchs and too close of a game to try communists when I have never tried them before.

Again, thanks for your suggestion.

PF

planetfall · February 25, 2004, 11:28

So much for option A and B. This is looking grim.

Good news is cyan Mayan's are gone. Bad news is Iroquois has a new city on both of the big islands AND the southern tip of my continent. How dare they????

I was wondering why I am having so much difficulty with just a jump from Monarch to Emperor. And then I noticed, Iroquois is commercial. Ugh, have I mentioned I hate the $%&**@$% commercial civs. I always target France early as they are commercial, but forgot about Iroquois. Ugh.

My military sucks, my tech lead has shrunk to 1 tech. I am demo and they are fascism and they are still gaining in techs. There is no one else to trade with so this is all self research. According to F11 I am ahead in MFG. But about 1/4 of last 10 turns that has toggled from 1st to 2nd to 1st....

Rough current military:
Germany::Iroquois

Junk navy, frigates, etc --- 0::50
Navy, cruisers, DS, trans -- 7::12
Bombers----------------12::15
Infantry----------------50::225
Tanks------------------40::0

Iroquois are building bombers like mad now and have about 10 in south point city. I am trying to culture flip the city, but don't know if that will work.

With that much navy I don't think I can use tact nukes.

Nuke question
Can tact nukes target any tile or are they restricted like ICBM's to city centers?

So now what should I try to do? I don't see any method of invading with 225 infantry, probably soon to be mechs. I don't see any options for conquest win except: sandbag a ton of cash and as soon Manhattan is completed, rush a ton of ICBM's and launch next turn.

Any other ideas for a conquest win? If not, I will have to keep plugging for a scoring win, but I expect Iroquois to invade fairly soon. Probably as soon as a culture flip works. My military is "weak".

PF

vmxa1 · February 25, 2004, 13:19

Mobilize

planetfall · February 25, 2004, 15:29

Funny you should mention that. I was planning on doing that but needed to get Internet first.

PF

planetfall · February 26, 2004, 12:08

Nope, decided not to mobilize. I am slightly ahead in score now and just researched fascism and switched to fascism. MFG is still number 1 so I should be able to handle without mobilization. I don't want to mobilize because there are about 125 turns left and after about 80 turns I should have the old Mayan cities starting to contribute military as well. But first I have to get happiness and factories in those cities.

Very interesting game now. I had been getting better so wars were moving earlier and earlier. It has been since the early PTW days that I had to fight a modern war.

The AI has definitely been improved for C3C

I used to see one or two attacks. Now what I am seeing is:

-- multifront attacks: NE, NW, SW, SE
-- carriers parking 10 tiles away from cities and bombarding
-- bombers hitting from any land base in range

No lo nger can 8 bombers defend a city effective from a city.
The AI is putting out a stack of
-carrier, 4 bombers
- 3 DS
My 8 bombers can wound those 4 ships, but rarely destroy them.
Here is the interesting part, after being wounded, the AI moves those 4 ships out of range into a port to heal. AND moves another stack into position. So by alternating healthy carrier/healing carrier, my poor city is under regular attack. Even 4 flak are not very effective. The DS are more effective vs bombers than 4 flak. Come on research, I need better AA.

And even more interesting, now a new carrier of 4 fighters is joining the bombing carrier. Wow. nasty, nasty.

I am kind of stuck again. I have 1/2 of my navy: all carriers, most transports, a few BS,DS. But defending against carrrier bombers eats up resources and I can't fill carriers with airforce or build up rest of navy. Much less the army units needed for invasion. I'm hoping ManuPlants will give me an edge. Right now researching Rockets so I can get jet defenders.

Any ideas on a good strategy vs carrier task forces?

Also, is there anything I should NOT be building at this stage of the game?
PF

UnOrthOdOx · February 26, 2004, 12:27

Q: How many pop did the different size cities lose on the switch to Fascism?

I haven't gotten around to it yet...

planetfall · February 26, 2004, 13:19

2 unless it is a very small city. The city never loses all its citizens. Iroquois were already Fascist and I didn't not want to experiment with commie at a new level since I have never played with that govt.

Biggest problem is with newly conquered cities you can't build culture buildings until your population is greater than native population. So in conquering and where you need culture, you bring in settlers. Also rushing is pop rush instead of cash rush.

PF

UnOrthOdOx · February 26, 2004, 13:33

Well, I'm a fan of the pop rush, personally, but am also a big fan of communism, so haven't ever pulled the trigger on going to Fascism.

I had a sandbox game I was going to use as a testbed and switch between all the govt to compare, but I got a virus and lost that save so I've gotta set up a new one here...

vmxa1 · February 26, 2004, 14:08

I tried to warn you about the bombers, they are pesky. Carriers and transports always have three escorts. This makes it very hard to hurt them, unless they get too close to shore.

vmxa1 · February 26, 2004, 14:11

So you can either go ahead and pay the cost of replacements and chip away at the fleets and bombers they have until you can win or go on a serious build up and attack them.

planetfall · February 26, 2004, 15:00

Unorthodox,

For sandbox suggest setting up a scenario with debug and make them identical. Then after you change to fascism, you can use the Control-A to add back 2 citizens to changed cities. You will have to make a list of cities and their size prior to fascism switch.

vmxa1,
Well other than the scenarios, I had not see how C3C played. It is different with DS/BS having AA. I'm seeing a ton more DS than before, guess they are bomber fodder.

Impulse is to get carriers, transports before land, but have to think this thru. It may not be the best strategy. Just building bombers and using them to get AI at max range is not working. Too many turns are churned.

I think I might try letting them hit, taking a few lumps, until they get closer where I can get the wounded as they try to escape. Losing bombers to yellow or even red ships is a lose situation.

PF

vmxa1 · February 26, 2004, 17:38

One thing I have been seeing is the the carriers will never come any closer than they have to, in order to be in range. As you have seen this makes taking them down with bombers very hard to do and very boring. You need maybe 20 bombers. If you do not sink the ships, they will go into port and heal and you will have to start over.

They will sent transports with escorts in and those can be blasted with arties and sunk by plane or ships. They soon give up on that and you will only see carriers.

The only way to stop it is to go after them or get a victory.

Aqualung71 · February 26, 2004, 23:16

I'm with vmxa1 - naval warfare has become a lot more tricky. To avoid paying the high price of a war of attrition, you've got to build your naval/air forces and then hit them all at once. Bombers are vital because their bombard capacity is much better than ships, but you just have to accept that you're going to lose a bunch to AI ship AA.

One strategy the AI used against me in AU501 was to use subs to specifically target my Carriers, which a BS/DS/CS escort is powerless to stop.....it was a bit too late to hamper my invasion, but if done at the right time it would have seriously screwed my plans. Still, watching the shield investment of a Carrier and 4 Bombers sinking to the ocean floor is not a pretty sight!

planetfall · February 27, 2004, 12:08

Ok, this game is basically over. Two cities on purple snake continent and one air field. Alas in establishing the DDay base, 2 Iroquois cities had have an improvement auction. But with fascism what can you do. Oh such a shame.....

Overview of AI naval maneuvers
Please review and let me know if you see anything amiss

1. Carrier task force
Numbers-- Here may see more if AI has strong lead, but with civs about equal I see 3-4 task forces.
Composition-- 1 carrier, 2 DS, 1BS, at least 3 bombers, maybe a fighter
Movement traits-- tends to hug coast and setup 10 tiles away from target city so it's bombers can have long runs. At least 2 sites will be chosen, usually at opposite ends of empire. It is common for carriers to alternate to respond to human bomber action. Wounded carrier will port and revived carrier will take post position for a regular bombing action. Escort vessels practice static defense rather than active defense as they are concerned with air defense.

2. Transport force
Numbers-- Vary, but usually see at least 2 enroute
Composition-- 1 transport, either 3DS or 2DS and 1 BS, plus troops of course. Do not see artillery on transport.
Movement traits-- Tend to go open ocean direct for target. Since going shortest route to target do not try to avoid coast lands along journey.
When most naval units are red lined, often freezes next turn: neither considering this force a suicide force nor attempting a retreat.

3. Sub force
Numbers-- Just a hand few
Composition-- lone wolfs
Movement traits-- tend to be open ocean and see out carriers.

4. Bombardment units
Numbers-- usually several BS and DS on patrol and coast bombardment.
Composition-- lone wolfs
Movement traits-- used to destroy coastal tile improvements and to distract human from main action.

Overview of Response tactics

1. Air only
a. vs Carrier task force
Since the Carrier force has 4 units with AA and fighters, and you want success, i.e. 3-4 bombers/unit and carrier has weaker values so it is the last to go, you need somewhere in the neighbor of 20 bombers per Carrier force. This is a massive number and any less will probably just result in you losing bombers for zip.

b. vs Transport force
Again 4 units, but vulnerable to air. Often they are by the coast and so vulnerable to artillery. If so lucky, hit first with art's to reduce AA effect. I saw loss ratios of bomber vs DS of about 1:5 and bomber vs BS of about 1:3 to AA action. Very favorable to human. 100sh for bomber traded for 5*120=600s or 100sh traded for 3*200=600. So for every bomber you lost to AA, AI loses 6 x as many shields. Can you say war of attrition. The units on the transport force are extra bonuses.
Normally you don't have to worry about synced Carrier and transport forces.

c. vs Sub force
Unless subs are near shore, you can't see them and so can't attack them. You need DS or AEGIS to find them within range of your bombers. No AA so easy 100 shields. The only problem is the annoyance of running all these search missions in order to locate them.

2. Ship only
Have not tried these but here is eval anyway.
a. vs Carrier task force
Need good stack of BS/DS. Expect to lose several to bombers plus defense of BS. Caution attacking DS can easily take out your BS.
May be slightly less costly than Air missions, but will still take sufficient resources.

b. vs Transport force
Here you don't need to worry about bombers, so success will be higher. This is just offense vs defense. You need to be on offense for best results. Only problem is getting in position as AI will target where you are not.

c. vs Sub force
Here success is high. You just need a ton of DS in order to find the sneaky buggers.

3. Sub only
a. vs Carrier task force
This is the way to go vs this unit. Get a wolfpack of at least 3 subs. Favor the open sea and set up so you either end up at the carrier or 1 tile closer to carrier. Assume you will lose 2 subs, 2*120=240shields. Sometimes the 1 tile escape will avoid AI counterattack. You will trade 240 shields for subs for 180s carrier, plus the bonus of any aircraft on deck plus the extra bonus of no more sea based bomber attacks from that carrier. Bottom a couple carriers at AI favorite location, keep a couple packs in deep sea just waiting and AI will port carriers in vicinity. Mission accomplished.

b. vs Transport force
Not advised as your offense is generally weaker than defense. And the weak transport will out run you.

c. vs Sub force
Not advised unless find target of opportunity. The problem is not in power but in ability to find targets.

4. Redirect production
Best defense against AI navy is to increase AI need for army. Can we say DDay Revisited?

Thumbnail cheat list
AI Carriers -----use subs wolf packs
AI transport task forces ----- use Air Force
AI subs -----use DS and AEGIS
All AI Naval units ----- use DDay invasion.

Does this make sense and help at all?

PF