I don't get the whole heaven thing

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Yeah, it's a bullshit bribe invented by some dude to get other dudes to do what he wanted.

But PRESUMING that to be false...
Also PRESUMING that there is a definition of a 'good' thing that people inherently know and in doing so have a choice whether to be 'good' or not...

It is entirely possible for a person to choose their personality - I've been doing that, so it is possible for a person to become inherently 'good', even by 'evil' motives.

But you choose your personality through your personality, thus in the end it's still a consequence of your original mindset.

[DaShi]

Damn it! I thought I killed this thread long ago.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

And the Random Bump Award goes to...

[Shi Huangdi]

foreknowledge != foreordination

[Theben]

Don't worry, sky, that whole "heaven" thing is something that you don't have to worry about.

[Berzerker]

"Heaven" is the "firmament" God used to separate the pre-existing waters, the waters above from the waters below. The waters below were later "gathered togethered" to form the "Seas" thereby allowing the [dry] land - "Earth" - to appear. Prior to this event, the "earth" was "void" - existent but not as "dry land" (the literal definition of Earth as given by God in Genesis) covered by the deep, i.e., the waters below the firmament.

So what are these waters above and what is the firmament? "Waters" can have different meanings; the Greeks and many of their predecessors referred to the planets and their orbits along with the starry sky as flowing like rivers across the sky, hence the description of Mars as a red river guarding the gates separating Heaven from Hell in Dante's Inferno.

And so we are left with the "firmament" or "Heaven". It is a barrier or demarcation line of some kind and we know it separates the waters that would come to be the Seas from the waters above. In Sumerian mythology (and related religions) the Heaven was described as a serpent biting it's tail thereby forming a circle. In biblical mythology the celestial battle that resulted in the creation of the Haeven and the Earth was fought between the Sky God and Tehom/Tiamat, the celestial watery dragon or serpent. The Bible refers to the remains of this defeated dragon as marking the scene of this celestial battle, a place where "her" remains were scattered in the shape of a circle and I believe the literal definition of "Heaven" is the "hammered bracelet" (that's the Sumerian meaning anyway) as in the way a blacksmith hammers metal to form a bracelet.

A stone from Rhode Island dating back ~7,500 years to the Red Paint People depicts a star on the left with a stick man in the middle with a serpent on the right forming an arc that would encircle both the man and the star if drawn to form a complete circle (the stone was not large enough for that though).

Now we get back to Genesis and why Heaven and Earth were created in 6 days and why God ceased creating and rested on the 7th day. Let us recall how the planets and their orbits were commonly referred to as rivers or waters.
Earth is called the 3rd planet because of it's proximity to the Sun, but if we look at the solar system from the outside, Earth is the 7th planet - and that is why the number 7 is so prevalent in ancient mythology and religion. From the 7 "eyes" of Brahma to the Incan tablet of creation depicting their "genesis" to virtually every other culture, the number 7 symbolises either the Earth or creation. So, Earth is the 7th planet and there are 6 planets beyond Earth. The Sumerians depicted Venus as an 8 pointed "star" and Mars as a 6 pointed "star".

According to the Bible, "God" was called forth to create from the celestial abyss - the deep of space. What would this God pass by on "his" way to create? Five outer planets, then Mars, and then the Earth. But we're told creation occured over 6 days and then God stopped. This means the primordial earth could not have been at it's current location - the 7 planet from the abyss. The Earth had to be further out from the Sun for it to be part of the 6 "day" creation. What phenomenon do we find after passing by the 5 outer planets? Mars? No, the asteroid belt! A ring or circle of debris - a "hammered bracelet"!

So the hammered bracelet marks the scene of a celestial battle between the sky god and the watery dragon. And the result of that battle was not only the Heaven, or hammered bracelet, but the newborn Earth pushed to a new orbit - the 7th orbit. So God passed by 5 outer planets, did battle with the dragon defeating her and spreading her remains out in the form of a bracelet at the 6th orbital position, and the newly created Earth stopped in the 7th position.

Interestingly enough, there is a West African creation myth that almost repeats the biblical version with one very important difference - they say God created Heaven and Earth in 4 days and God ceased creating on the 5th day. Again, visualise a solar system with the proto Earth at the asteroid belt instead of it's current location. God enters the solar system from the depths of space, passes by the outer planets and strikes the 6th planet pushing the proto Earth to a new, inner orbit. Looking at this same event from the perspective of the Sun, this proto Earth before the battle was the 4th planet from the Sun. And after the battle? It became the 3rd planet with Mars becoming the 4th planet and the asteroid belt, the same place God ceased creating, the same place God rested from his creation, is located at the 5th orbital position from the Sun. God creates Heaven and Earth after 4 days and stops creating on the 5th - the proto Earth was the 4th planet and the asteroid belt, the site of the battle, is the 5th position.

According to Zecharia Sitchin's interpretation of the Enuma Elish - the Babylonian creation epic - Pluto was not a former satellite of Neptune (the currently predominate theory) but was in fact a satellite of Saturn. Are there any interesting phenomenon connecting Pluto with Saturn? Yes, several! First, if we draw a line out from Saturn's equator - Saturn's equatorial plane - we meet Pluto at it's perihelion (Pluto's closest point to the Sun). Second, both Pluto and Saturn ascend the Sun's equatorial plane within 3 degrees of each other. No other planets come close to such a relationship. Third, if we subtract Saturn's mean distance from the Sun from Pluto's orbit, we see a 2 to 1 relationship between Plutos closest and furthest position from the Sun. Saturn's mean distance is ~9-10 A.U (astronomical units - the earth's distance from the Sun). Pluto at it's closest approach to the Sun is ~29 A.U. and ~49 A.U. at it's furthest point. Subtract 9-10 A.U. (Saturn's distance) from Pluto and we get ~20 and 40 A.U.

Why do so many of the world's creation myths - from the Bible to the Amerindians - claim the "Earth" was covered with water before God began creating and why the dry land was revealed from underneath the water? We can see why every time a comet approaches the Sun...

The solar wind pushes gas and dust outward and the "collection" point - the point where vapor begins to freeze - is located at the asteroid belt. This is where incoming comets begin displaying a tail as the solar wind starts melting the comet's ice. If a planet had formed at the asteroid belt it would have been located at the best position to gather up water vapor and ice. This is partly why the outer planets are gaseous giants, they gathered up vapor blown out of the inner solar system by the solar wind. It is only logical that a planet would have formed at the asteroid belt, but that it would have been the first planet to form and that it would have had plenty of water.
But there is a problem, according to the Emuna Elish the proto Earth - Tehom/Tiamat - was the first planet followed by Mercury, Venus, and Mars and then later by Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. However, an astronomer named Flandern I think came up with a simple mathematical equation showing the dirstibution of planets in the solar system. Aside from Earth and the most distant
gas giants, the planets follow an obvious distribution - the planets are roughly twice as far from the Sun. Venus is 2x as far from the Sun as Mercury, Mars is 2x as far as Venus,, and so on. Just one problem, the equation only works if the Earth is removed from the picture and a planet is placed at the asteroid belt. Hmm...

Oh, one more interesting thing about the Incan creation myth depicted on a tablet of gold since melted down by those wonderful Spaniards, their "Creator" was depicted as an ellipse!!! And this ellipse separated (or joined depending on interpretation) two groups of "stars" - 4 below and 5 above with symbols of the Sun and Moon on eiether side of the ellipse. It's a very accurate depiction of our solar system... 4 inner planets, 5 outer planets, the Sun, the Moon, and the Creator depicted as an ellipse - a total of 12 (hmm...another significant number) celestial objects with the Creator in a dual role - an ellipse separating 9 planets. Anthropologists have long claimed there was no relevant contact between the Inca and the Maya/Toltec, yet here on this tablet is a creation myth that has a lot in common with the Aztec/Toltec depiction of the Heaven. The Inca depiction shows 12 celestial objects, 9 planets, Sun, Moon, and a Creator serving a dual role, i.e., occupying 2 positions - the ellipse - in the solar system. According to the Toltec, there were "9 Lords of the Night". i,e,. planets, and 13 layers of Heaven with the Creator occupying 2 layers. Bingo!!! The same description given by the Inca...

[Robert Plomp]

Christians don't believe we go to heaven after we die.
We believe that Jesus will return and renew the earth, on which we will live for eternity. The original earth God intended in the beginning.

And since God Himself will live on that renewed earth, the question is: do you want to live with God, yes or no.
Do you love Him, yes or not.
Nobody can force anybody to marry someone.
God doesn't force anybody to be with Him forever.

Thus it's being with God or without God.
Of course it's not so good to live without God, but apparently people who do'nt want to be with God disagree with that. That's their good right.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
foreknowledge != foreordination

Wake me up when the thread reaches the foreplay part.

[DeathByTheSword]

what is living with god?...what does god do for a christian?...i never understood that...and dont give me anything mystical or magical...explain it to me please

[Robert Plomp]

If only I would know that answer exactly...........
But I imagine as it being all the good of the earth in a perfect world. But it's impossible to imagine. I like it to win a game of soccer. How can soccer be fun with no losers....? A draw everytime...? That must suck.

I have faith it'll be good. But I don't know how.

[Victor Galis]

Question: If you are a good person, do good things for others for the right reasons, etc. And behave essentially perfectly, except for one small thing: You refuse to believe in God. You go to Hell, right? Doesn't that mean that God will persecute you for thoughtcrimes? Personally, that alone makes me not want to believe in a God like that. I'd rather be a political dissident in Hell.

[Robert Plomp]

The original sin is that mankind wants to be god themselves, deciding over good and evil themselves.
The ultimate question is: do you accept God to be your god? Or do you want to be your own god?

If you chose the first, you shall live as a servant of God for eternity on the new earth He has made.
If you chose the latter, you can be your own god in your own place, all by yourself. Deciding over good and evil in your own private territorium.

Hell is simply the place where God is not.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by CyberShy
The original sin is that mankind wants to be god themselves, deciding over good and evil themselves.
The ultimate question is: do you accept God to be your god? Or do you want to be your own god?

If you chose the first, you shall live as a servant of God for eternity on the new earth He has made.
If you chose the latter, you can be your own god in your own place, all by yourself. Deciding over good and evil in your own private territorium.

Hell is simply the place where God is not.

I am not comfortable with the word servant. The relationship God desires for us is much fuller than that. If God wanted us to serve him he could have created us to do so perfectly. God desires fellowship with us. You would do much better to characterize the relationship as one between and a loving parent and a child, but in a mature sense.

[DeathByTheSword]

I am not comfortable with the word servant. The relationship God desires for us is much fuller than that. If God wanted us to serve him he could have created us to do so perfectly. God desires fellowship with us. You would do much better to characterize the relationship as one between and a loving parent and a child, but in a mature sense.

if he want fellowship then why idea that some will go the heaven to be with god...and some will not...this creates a breach between humans...so that fellowship with each other isnt a possiblity...

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Question: If you are a good person, do good things for others for the right reasons, etc. And behave essentially perfectly, except for one small thing: You refuse to believe in God. You go to Hell, right? Doesn't that mean that God will persecute you for thoughtcrimes? Personally, that alone makes me not want to believe in a God like that. I'd rather be a political dissident in Hell.

If a frog had wings...

The question should be one of belief in the eternal soul. Is the soul eternal? If so, then we as men certainly have no knowledge or power over it. Therefore, of course, we cannot begin to judge eternity. Hell is absence from God, a punishment in its own right, not levied because of our behavior but inherited by birthright because of the decision of original sin.

Just as soon as mankind is able to discover the secret to eternal life we can reasonably abandon the consideration of God. Until then, you have only two choices, first, conduct your own personal search for God and truth, or second, cling to the belief that life ends a death's door and essentially live within your own internal constructs.

[DeathByTheSword]

The question should be one of belief in the eternal soul. Is the soul eternal? If so, then we as men certainly have no knowledge or power over it. Therefore, of course, we cannot begin to judge eternity. Hell is absence from God, a punishment in its own right, not levied because of our behavior but inherited by birthright because of the decision of original sin.

why is absence of god a punishment? what does god do? i am not trying to get people mad...but well what does god do?

[Victor Galis]

Well if all Hell is is the absence of God, then I certainly wouldn't mind going there.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword

if he want fellowship then why idea that some will go the heaven to be with god...and some will not...this creates a breach between humans...so that fellowship with each other isnt a possiblity...

The breach was created by humans and it is our nature to be contentious. The human race was created by God and we wandered off. God is best understood as the essence of good and holiness and we, as decendants of the original sin, cannot be reunitied with God in his eternal state. The good news is that God provided as way for us to be redeemed from our state as outcasts, that being the Christ. We must only have faith, as children would. That is at once both elusive and readily at hand.

Everything that we are screams that we cannot have faith in an unseen God. We revolt at the thought that nothing we can ever achieve matters in the least, our fate is based on faith and faith alone. A child, even those with limited mental ability can come to God through faith. In many ways it is easier for such to do so, as the more capable we are the less likely we are to accept that we are powerless in this the most important question of our lives. In fact, it is the only question that really matters in the end and it is perfectly HUMAN that we struggle to accept the conditions of reunion with God. We want things on our terms (which is the trait that separated us from God in the beginning).

[DeathByTheSword]

but if god is onmipresent...why did he create such f*ckups like us then? and which of the 2 is it...do we have free will or are we controlled by fate?

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword

why is absence of god a punishment? what does god do? i am not trying to get people mad...but well what does god do?

God is good. Make a list of all the things that are bad that you can think of and imagine a place where none of those things exist. Because only good exists in God's presence. When our souls return to God we will be transformed into beings that no longer have the capacity to habor all of the negative emotions and thoughts that mark our existence here on earth. People say that religion is brainwashing, well, coming to faith in God is much more than that. It is soulwashing, an act beyond our capabilities and one that happens not wholely at the time of our conversion, but is fully realized only at the time we leave the flesh and begin to dwell with God.

The benefits of being "saved" that we enjoy here on earth are real but not totally different than those enjoyed by adopting and practicing a host of belief systems and philosophies. If one wants to live better and be a better person as we judge those things then we certainly do not need God to achieve that. After all, all of our on constructs are within our perview. If we want to judge ourselves by a standard that outlaws, for example, murder, then we can either not murder or simply change the standard to allow murder, perhaps in varying circumstances.

One can never change God's law, and this is one way that we can judge ourselves, if we indulge ourselves in behaviors that God has commanded us not to do, do we grieve at our behavior or do we seek to justify it? We will sin as long as we are in the flesh, but our reaction to that sin is the best evidence of the condition of our hearts. If we have accepted the Christ we have a new conscience.

[DeathByTheSword]

but cant people create all that good by themselves? is it just believing in god, something not-material or proveble, that makes us saved? if that is so god is asking complete and utterly loyality and faith from humans. then we would be servants to him/her and not childern of god

[Impaler[WrG]]

Humm, the absence of God would be an abscense of any controling or guiding athority but also a lack of harmony. Esentialy your going it alone, a free agent in essence. Danta probly had it best when the devil says "its better to rule in Hell then to serve in Heaven". The Devil then is the ultimate loner having comited to total independence.

So your choice is between a harmonious yet subservient relationship with the creator or an independent but chaotic and restless existence.

Much like the Garden of Eden being a harmonious place but one in which their God rules all. The fruit of knowlage gives man the tools for independence and precludes him from staying in his childlike state.

If your a very independently minded person perhaps Hell is preferable to you, the trials and tribulations of this world give us the drive to succed, grow and strive. All thouse pasions would be calmed in heaven we would loss our drive and become "soft". I also think you would be keept ignorant in Heaven as that would be blissfull. Basicly Heaven = Eternal Nurturing Infancy, Hell = Independent Maturity. Not an easy desision.

It seems to me that going to Heaven or Hell will depend on how much you want harmony vs how much you want independence. How "good" or "Evil" you are in the classic sense might not have any bearing, Goodness could simply be itsown reward and Evil itsown punishment.

The only thing I realy belive in is that everyone will get what they deserve in the end be it Heaven, Hell, Purgatory or the soul snuffing out like a Candel in the wind we all exist which is in itself mindboggling.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
but if god is onmipresent...why did he create such f*ckups like us then? and which of the 2 is it...do we have free will or are we controlled by fate?

Two tough questions. To the first I would say that I have worked it out in my mind that it would be presumptous of me to try to decide why God is like he is. If I ask God why this or why that then I believe that is no more than repeating the original sin. We have to accept who we are and our nature by faith just as we have to accept our salvation by faith. We certainly have sufficient evidence at hand to see that we are F***-ups. We just need to stop blaming God for what we are long enough to look for the way of redemption that he has prepared for us. And, while many reject the concept of free will as preposterous, it must be so else life is a moot point and we might as well all be pirates. I accept that life is not meaningless by faith and I found that faith in myself. I believe that is a gift God gives each of us. Look for it. And remember that God will not require anything of you beyond faith. The work of salvation is God's work and He will do it when you have prepared yourself to receive Him.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Berzerker:

Earth is called the 3rd planet because of it's proximity to the Sun, but if we look at the solar system from the outside, Earth is the 7th planet - and that is why the number 7 is so prevalent in ancient mythology and religion. From the 7 "eyes" of Brahma to the Incan tablet of creation depicting their "genesis" to virtually every other culture, the number 7 symbolises either the Earth or creation. So, Earth is the 7th planet and there are 6 planets beyond Earth. The Sumerians depicted Venus as an 8 pointed "star" and Mars as a 6 pointed "star".

Uh...Pluto was discovered last century. Are you saying that all these cultures knew about it and all forgot?

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Humm, the absence of God would be an abscense of any controling or guiding athority but also a lack of harmony. Esentialy your going it alone, a free agent in essence. Danta probly had it best when the devil says "its better to rule in Hell then to serve in Heaven". The Devil then is the ultimate loner having comited to total independence.

So your choice is between a harmonious yet subservient relationship with the creator or an independent but chaotic and restless existence.

Much like the Garden of Eden being a harmonious place but one in which their God rules all. The fruit of knowlage gives man the tools for independence and precludes him from staying in his childlike state.

If your a very independently minded person perhaps Hell is preferable to you, the trials and tribulations of this world give us the drive to succed, grow and strive. All thouse pasions would be calmed in heaven we would loss our drive and become "soft". I also think you would be keept ignorant in Heaven as that would be blissfull. Basicly Heaven = Eternal Nurturing Infancy, Hell = Independent Maturity. Not an easy desision.

It seems to me that going to Heaven or Hell will depend on how much you want harmony vs how much you want independence. How "good" or "Evil" you are in the classic sense might not have any bearing, Goodness could simply be itsown reward and Evil itsown punishment.

The only thing I realy belive in is that everyone will get what they deserve in the end be it Heaven, Hell, Purgatory or the soul snuffing out like a Candel in the wind we all exist which in itself mindboggling.

There is a lot of good thinking in your post. While I might not agree with your conclusions I can testify that in my search for truth I traveled those roads and I wish for you a fruitful journey.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Well if all Hell is is the absence of God, then I certainly wouldn't mind going there.

We were born into a world outside God's presence, but not outside of his influence. I would prefer moving in the opposite direction than you Victor, having concluded that the fruits of mankind's effort will not create a place in which I would desire to spend eternity.

[Bereta_Eder]

As the scriptures says you have to actually believe with all your heart the way you contact yourself. So heaven is not a prize if you do. More like what's coming to you if you think feel act a certain way. If one behaves a certain way only in order to go to heaven he's not doing what god allegendly wants so he won't go.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Thanks, as I said I belive everyone gets what they deserve in this world and "maybe" the next.

You have faith which is important to you, I have my doupt which is important to me, to each his own. You have faith in your faith I have doupt in my doupt, an endless conundrum.

P.S. That stuff about the Firmements, planets and such reminds me of Immanuel Velikovsky. Basicly Psudo Science used to try to justify matters of pure faith. Basicaly an atempt to "half-belive" and "half-doupt" a position I find contemtable. I can atleast respect faith or ratinalize doupt but nothing in-between. Pick ONE faith OR doupt their is no middle ground!

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
but cant people create all that good by themselves? is it just believing in god, something not-material or proveble, that makes us saved? if that is so god is asking complete and utterly loyality and faith from humans. then we would be servants to him/her and not childern of god

I do not believe that people can create good. We have the capacity to turn from obvious evilness and adopt better behavior but in doing so we just substitute a lesser evil for the greater in the end.

We are "saved" by the supernatural act of God after we have repented of the notion that we are good and submit to His will. If you want to conclude that is submission to servitude, then I can understand the line of thought. We are getting into an issue of vocabulary here and frankly, I am not nearly capable of expressing things more clearly. I hope you will continue to ask these questions not only here, but through reading and contemplation. The truth is there for each of us and it is a personal journey. All any of us can do is offer our testimony. You can't go to a gas station and buy a road map to heaven because faith is not a road in temporal terms.

[Bereta_Eder]

It's tricky.