Switch to Free Market?

[Maniac]

Finally here is the long promised poll about going to Free Market or staying Planned. I've used the 2156 presend to compare the differences between staying Planned, or going Free Market with 20% psych and 80% ecocomy, and the switches from doctor to worker or worker to doctor that entails.
Here are the results:

Planned:
32 surplus nutrients
92 non-support minerals (19 used for unit support)
125 credits
66 labs

Free Market:
47 surplus nutrients
101 minerals
284 credits
0 labs

To compare, due to going FM we'd have -2 Growth compared to Planned, but due to needing fewer doctors our nutrient surplus would increase with 17. Faster growth in other words.

We'd have +1 instead of +2 Industry because of going FM, but there's also an increase in minerals (again due to needing less doctors) which more or less makes up for that.

And lastly we get +4 Efficiency when going FM, so we suffer no inefficiency from going 80% economy. As a consequence we can make full use of our Planetary Energy Grid advantage. Result is a gain of 284 - (125+66)= 93 energy.

Pacifism drones can be a problem under Free Market. Though I doubt we'll get many as our forces jump from conquering one base to another within the same turn, so they don't leave our territory.

If we're going to build a needlejet in Logic Loop to attack a possible new PEACE base on Yardarm Island, we'll need to switch the two technicians to doctor for a while. Though even then FM is still far more lucrative.

Also if we're going FM I'd suggest to make the citizen in And/Or Gate a doctor to prevent the base from growing. As all (one) citizens would then be doctors, the base cannor riot. That way we can rehome all air units without a problem to that base so that they do not cause pacifism drones in our other bases. Since there's a rocky mineral square near that base, it will also be easy to support the unit homed to that base.

I've put the time limit on three days.

[Nubclear]

Switch to free market, and I destroy you!

Maybe

[Method]

o.O you mean we're not running free market already? Switch!

[GeoModder]

So, you're proposing to have no lab output whatsoever?

PUT is a quick researcher, but it's output isn't equal to that of Hive/Drones

[Ouro_827]

Stay planned...

[Drogue]

Switch, but keep some research. Helps with beelines not to have them all with one faction, IMHO.

[Maniac]

Some arguments to clarify my position:

GeoModder:

So, you're proposing to have no lab output whatsoever?

Yes, for now. The reason is that due our PEG advantage 80% economy gives 284 credits, while 80% labs only gives 238.8 labs. A loss of 45 energy per year in other words (or eg 23 if you'd go for 40% labs). An amount not to be neglected IMHO.

PUT is a quick researcher, but it's output isn't equal to that of Hive/Drones

Indeed. By letting the CyCon concentrate on labs, we could probably equal their labs production, but as pointed above as a consequence our credits production (and due to not being able to hurry as much also our mineral production) would suffer more than we gain in labs.

And is it really worth concentrating all our energy on research? Bioengineering (for clean reactors) and Centauri Meditation (for empaths to replace our IIRC 15(!) doctors) are valuable and easily reachable goals. But after that it takes a lot of research to reach our next goals: Fusion Power and Biomachinery. We'd have to pass through pretty useless techs such as Polymorphic Software, Doctrine:Loyalty, Adaptive Doctrine, Intellectual Integrity, Optical Computers, Superconductors, and so on. Wouldn't it be better to let the Hive-Drones do all the hard work of researching those technologies, and then we attempt to probe those technologies from the faction which is most hostile to us? Then we can focus more on improving our infrastructure in the meantime, and decrease the industrial gap with the Hive-Drones.

Drogue:

Switch, but keep some research.

Since with FM we have +4 Efficiency and thus no penalties for maxing out econ or labs, aren't the only worthwhile energy allocation positions now either 80% economy, or 80% labs?

To give an example of why, let's assume a case where we're running with 20% psych, 40% economy and 40% labs, and that it would take 8 years to research our next tech.
However now assume a counterexample where we're running 80% economy for the first four years, and 80% labs for the next four years. Due to having the amount of cash in four years that we would otherwise have received in eight years, we can invest more cash faster back into our economy, meaning we gain comparative turn advantage and meaning we can for example hurry more facilities or units in those four years that increase our energy (and thus indirectly labs) production. As a consequence our labs production in the last four years of the 80% counterexample will be higher than in the first example of running 40% labs continually.

For this reason I propose that now we run 80% economy to make the most use of our Planetary Energy Grid advantage, and to gain as much comparative turn advantage as possible. And when we need a technology, I suggest we switch to 80% labs to get that tech technology as soon as possible. After all, unlike credits which one can invest immediately, all labs investments are useless and don't pay back until the moment you research the tech, so it's better to run 80% labs for four years than run 40% labs for eight years and get less credits in that period.

Helps with beelines not to have them all with one faction, IMHO.

I don't understand what you mean by that. Could you please explain some more?

[Impaler[WrG]]

I have always advocated FreeMarket for massive Credit production (and I am glad to see the output is very high, I had estimated around 250 Credits, but now the actualy output of near 300 is even better).

Also I realy like the idea of letting the Hive/Drones do the research for us. Our Military forces are insufficient to prosicute a drawnout war with either of these factions BUT they are ideal for attacking coastal bases and clearing a path for probe teams or foils to move in.

We can use all thouse Credits to buy some nice facilites and close the build gap, then when we feel ready we can move back into a war and perhaps use Punishment Shperes.

Also the Cycons current reserch project will be on hold as the University dose the research. Once we get close to a desirable reserch goal we can do a transfer from the Uni and switch the Cycons goal to something better and briefly push reserch up the the max to grab that discovery. Thus the Cycon Project will act as an Ace up our sleve untill we chosse to use it.

[Maniac]

Great to see you here Impaler!

[Illuminatus]

I guess I will vote FM too.

[GeoModder]

No use to vote 'nay' now, majority decision favours FM, but still I do it. Planned 'till PEACE is gone.

[MrWhereItsAt]

FM as long as PEACE is not long for this world. The efficiency boost is what will make the concentration on credits and then labs on separate turns/turn periods effective - like Xinning in Civ2. First food and then labs - means far mmore productivity. It's a basic tenet of manufacturing and research - specialisation is key.

The one concern I have is PEACE. I do not know what stage we are at with them, and I do not want us to go FM too quickly, lest we suffer during the war with them. There is nothing in this poll about WHEN to go FM, beyond the obviously implied 'soon'. I think that the Prime Function should be careful to switch only when it is clear we can finish the PEACE war soon after and without Drone consequences of switching to FM too soon. Take me vote as to FM soonest, but with trust in the Prime Function to decide when it is safe to do so.

[Archaic]

Question. What would a 40/20/40 split give us? I don't like the idea of putting all the researching eggs in one basket, especially when the PUT is still a big sitting duck target.

[Maniac]

MWIA:

Sorry, I indeed forgot to tell the date of when to go FM. It was my intention to do so this year: MY 2157.
As for the progress in the PEACE war, normally two bases should be captured this year, leaving them with one, which should be captured next year MY 2158. If they want to survive, they'll probably build a base on Yardarm Island this year though, and my estimate is we'll be able to capture that MY 2161. Unless they manage to build some other base elsewhere in the meantime, that should be the end of PEACE as an indepent faction.
At the end of this year we normally won't have any combat unit outside our territory, so pacifism drones aren't a problem at all. if we build an impact needlejet in Logic Loop, we'll have to turn two technicians into doctors, but that's a temporary measure if we make And/Or Gate in the home base of all our air units. In any case, the benefits of going FM are still *much* larger than the drawbacks of having to appoint two extra doctors.

Btw, an extra element which I forgot to mention in the first post. Due to going FM, CyCon's commerce with PUT will increase, and they'll gain 10 extra labs per turn. Another advantage.

Archaic:

Question. What would a 40/20/40 split give us?

In the CyCon MY 2156 presend, it would give 117.6 labs and 141 credits per year.

[Archaic]

Still superior to the Planned then. Maybe a point to consider, especially with the all eggs in one basket problem.

[Method]

let's do that one. The Emperor Prime Function commands you!

[MrWhereItsAt]

I think it looks pretty conclusive to go for FM now then, with the only thing to discuss further being the exact breakdown of Energy/Labs/Psych. However I would think that surely we could have 80% Energy for a few turns then 80% beakers, and be better off overall due to the ECs we build up being spent on improvements etc earlier rather than having to wait to build up enough ECs if we had a more even split. This way we aren;t relying on PUT for research, either.

[Archaic]

That would certainly be worth considering, especially if we could set up a little turn simulator scenario to test just what the results are with what lengths of each.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Absolutly right WIA. I proposed the same thing about a decade ago myself. If we build Net nodes in a few key bases (Logic Loop, Triplex, Prime, Pi) we can probly incresse our output under an 80% Reserarch Alocation by about 100 Points to something in the 300 range. It would likly 100-150 Credits for each Network Node.

But I feel we should focus on TreeFarms first as they bost Econ and Pych and most importantly NUTS!

[Drogue]

I agree with Impaler completely

[GeoModder]

Free Market it is.

Ok, I agree with Impaler as well for Tree Farms and Network Nodes by the time a switch to lab output is planned.

[MrWhereItsAt]

/me hopes with all the extra cash we will be ensuring we have adequate defenses/offenses to counter the aggression of the jealous other factions

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
* MrWhereItsAt hopes with all the extra cash we will be ensuring we have adequate defenses/offenses to counter the aggression of the jealous other factions

That might become a problem, with the production output those 2 have.