February 24, 2004, 01:14
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#121
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Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
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Quote:
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Think about this, Imran, have you seen this news out on the media? Why not?
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Because it ain't an issue. It doesn't matter.
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“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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February 24, 2004, 02:34
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#122
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Prince
Local Time: 02:15
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
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Originally posted by Ned
However, the only reason we were there was for the reasons I stated. We wanted to prevent a NV takeover of a nascent democracy in SV by communists
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Democracy? In South Vietnam?
Which democratically elected leader are you referring to?
You mean Ngo Dinh Diem who seized control of the government in 55?
Or Duong Van Minh, who took control after staging a coup that murdered Diem in 63?
Or Nguyen Khanh who staged a coup in 64 that replaced Minh?
Or Nguyen Van Thieu who staged a coup in 1965?
Yes, Thieu held an "election" in 67, but he then rigged the election in 71.
Some democracy.
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February 24, 2004, 10:38
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#123
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King
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
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Originally posted by Tingkai
Democracy? In South Vietnam?
Which democratically elected leader are you referring to?
You mean Ngo Dinh Diem who seized control of the government in 55?
Or Duong Van Minh, who took control after staging a coup that murdered Diem in 63?
Or Nguyen Khanh who staged a coup in 64 that replaced Minh?
Or Nguyen Van Thieu who staged a coup in 1965?
Yes, Thieu held an "election" in 67, but he then rigged the election in 71.
Some democracy.
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All true. I also remember that the debates then about whether a primitive people could support a democratic government. The arguments of the opponents of the war of course stated that our efforts would meet with failure.
I think the failure of democracy in Vietnam had a lot to do with the fact that there was no peace, not that the people themselves did not want democracy or were incapable of supporting it.
I note that the same arguments about democracy are again being raised by the left in their opposition to our efforts in Iraq.
All this goes to show is that the left are hypocrites on issue of human rights and basic freedoms. The left seems to be very much enamored with authoritarian governments so long as those governments go through the proper motions of denouncing corporations and capitalism.
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Last edited by Ned; February 24, 2004 at 11:35.
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February 24, 2004, 11:28
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#124
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King
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: New England
Posts: 1,310
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Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
Unless we are willing to undertake military action against Vietman we chould do nothing as it is none of our bussienes. How about our support for the party in Cambodia which murrder how many million of people which only Vietman have the mortal cought to get rid of when their free Cambodia from those murderous thug support by neocom in Washington.
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WRT taking action in foreign countries I think we should solve our domestic problems first. But that will never happen.
Anyway butchery happens on a daily basis and it doesn't matter to those who have the power to do something about it. They can at least voice protest or consider economic sanctions. Or go to the UN.
However I'm very disgusted with mankind these days. It seems that people in power have only one goal. To get rich and to stay in power no matter what. The little people are all expendable..
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signature not visible until patch comes out.
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February 24, 2004, 11:41
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#125
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King
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
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Originally posted by Cookie Monster
WRT taking action in foreign countries I think we should solve our domestic problems first. But that will never happen.
Anyway butchery happens on a daily basis and it doesn't matter to those who have the power to do something about it. They can at least voice protest or consider economic sanctions. Or go to the UN.
However I'm very disgusted with mankind these days. It seems that people in power have only one goal. To get rich and to stay in power no matter what. The little people are all expendable..
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That is why democracy is essential. That is why our cause in Vietnam was just.
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February 24, 2004, 12:13
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#126
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ned
All true. I also remember that the debates then about whether a primitive people could support a democratic government. The arguments of the opponents of the war of course stated that our efforts would meet with failure.
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You mean the debates by sets of arrogant white men who were mostly interested in how they could get a bunch of gooks to consistently support the white master's geopolitical aims?
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I think the failure of democracy in Vietnam had a lot to do with the fact that there was no peace, not that the people themselves did not want democracy or were incapable of supporting it.
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The failure of democracy was a result of the fact that all those who held, or would be allowed to hold, any power were connected to one or more of the military, an elitist Catholic minority who detested the peasants, French ex-colonial interests, and/or American geopolitical interests. On the flip side, you had the commies. The US was not interested in real democracy, because real democracy wouldn't have elected corrupt puppets to serve US interests. It would have most likely elected corrupt thugs who served their own interests.
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I note that the same arguments about democracy are again being raised by the left in their opposition to our efforts in Iraq.
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Not just on the left, bucko. If you claim to think that people in the third world (whether Iraq, Vietnam, Haiti, or anyplace else) are going to naturally elect leaders who will see their country's "proper" role vis-a-vis US policy and happily go along with the program, then I know you're trolling, because you're not that dumb.
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All this goes to show is that the left are hypocrites on issue of human rights and basic freedoms. The left seems to be very much enamored with authoritarian governments so long as those governments go through the proper motions of denouncing corporations and capitalism.
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As opposed to the right's hypocrisy of hyping illusory freedom and fraudulent democracy, while supporting whatever arrangement promotes US interests? At least in the old days, empires had the balls and the basic honesty to proclaim themselves as such.
__________________
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When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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February 24, 2004, 12:24
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#127
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King
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
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MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?
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February 24, 2004, 12:26
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#128
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Deity
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ned
MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?
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He's an unreconstructed Confederate.
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February 24, 2004, 12:30
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#129
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Emperor
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ned
I also agree that the military strategy and execution was abysmal. I think the primary reason for this was that it was too much controlled by Johnson and McNamara and not by the military itself.
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This is a lie. The military was in command. It may be true that Johnson picked the targets, but the list of targets was given to him by the military. With the exception of a ten mile zone south of the Chinese border, every target in Vietnam was hit. The military got what they wanted, the way they wanted it, with the exception of an invasion of North Vietnam. The only thing the politicians didn't let the military do ws start WWIII.
Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?
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Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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February 24, 2004, 12:32
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#130
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
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yes, john kerry is a commie, john kerry eats babies, john kerry commits genocide...
god, conservatives are such morons 
edit: on second thought... I can't be sure ALL of them are... just many or most
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February 24, 2004, 12:44
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#131
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King
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
This is a lie. The military was in command. It may be true that Johnson picked the targets, but the list of targets was given to him by the military. With the exception of a ten mile zone south of the Chinese border, every target in Vietnam was hit. The military got what they wanted, the way they wanted it, with the exception of an invasion of North Vietnam. The only thing the politicians didn't let the military do ws start WWIII.
Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?
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Well, that is not the whole story, now is it?
Besides, not invading NV was critical to the failure in Vietnam.
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February 24, 2004, 12:45
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#132
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
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Quote:
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Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?
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because it doesn't fit in with his right-wing propaganda
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February 24, 2004, 12:57
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#133
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Emperor
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ned
Besides, not invading NV was critical to the failure in Vietnam.
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It was also critical to the survival of the human species.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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February 24, 2004, 13:17
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#134
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
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Quote:
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It was also critical to the survival of the human species.
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OMFG THOSE DAMNED BASTARDS JOHNSON AND MACNAMARA PREVENTED A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST OMFG THOSE ****ING COMMIES!
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February 24, 2004, 13:25
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#135
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King
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,657
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Originally posted by DinoDoc
He's an unreconstructed Confederate.
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As I am. This is probably why I favor Edwards over Kerry, truth be told.
It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.
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February 24, 2004, 13:27
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#136
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
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Quote:
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Originally posted by jimmytrick
As I am. This is probably why I favor Edwards over Kerry, truth be told.
It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.
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you'd probably vote hitler if he was from the south over jesus christ if he were from the north....
that's sad...
you should care about POLICIES and not where someone is from...
that being said, I like Edwards better too
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February 24, 2004, 13:28
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#137
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Emperor
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
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Quote:
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Originally posted by jimmytrick
It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.
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WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?!?!
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Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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February 24, 2004, 13:29
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#138
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:15
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I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.
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"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
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February 24, 2004, 13:54
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#139
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by The Mad Monk

I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.
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care to sum them up in a shortened form? I'm too lazy to go back and read
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February 24, 2004, 13:57
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#140
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Emperor
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
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Quote:
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Originally posted by The Mad Monk

I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.
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Actually, they were so dumb no one bothered.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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February 24, 2004, 13:59
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#141
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Prince
Local Time: 02:15
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
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February 24, 2004, 14:01
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#142
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ned
MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?
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Nothing to do with hating the US. The US as a whole is generally distinct from the more malicious and arrogant aspects of it's foreign policy.
Oh, yes, and because I'm an unreconstructed Confederate.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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February 24, 2004, 14:12
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#143
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
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Quote:
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Oh, yes, and because I'm an unreconstructed Confederate.
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we're going to liberate your ass next biyatch!
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February 24, 2004, 17:32
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#144
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Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
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Quote:
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MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?
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 Oh Ned... I bet now I'm a liberal (because I've been defending Kerry) and MtG is the next coming of bin Laden to you  .
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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February 24, 2004, 17:37
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#145
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Emperor
Local Time: 12:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: of the Big Apple
Posts: 4,109
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Imran, who knows the ins and outs of the Nedaverse? I doubt even Ned has a map of that dangerous place.
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If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
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February 24, 2004, 19:56
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#146
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King
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Posts: 2,596
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Imran, you can defend Kerry if you like.
BTW, where do you come out on the Vietnam war?
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February 24, 2004, 20:46
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#147
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Local Time: 14:15
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I think it's unfortunate. I mean, if we realized what Ho Chi Minh was after, we wouldn't have had to fight him. He was simply a nationalist and because we made him our enemy, he went to China and Russia. If we were actually backing a democracy, then it would have made some sense, but we were propping up a brutal dictatorship.
In addition to that we did some really rotten stuff in Vietnam. Not a very proud moment for the country, that is sure.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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February 24, 2004, 21:08
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#148
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Emperor
Local Time: 03:15
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
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...is absolutely sure to win the transexual vote.
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Only feebs vote.
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