Thread Tools
Old February 24, 2004, 01:14   #121
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
Think about this, Imran, have you seen this news out on the media? Why not?
Because it ain't an issue. It doesn't matter.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 02:34   #122
Tingkai
Prince
 
Local Time: 02:15
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
However, the only reason we were there was for the reasons I stated. We wanted to prevent a NV takeover of a nascent democracy in SV by communists
Democracy? In South Vietnam?

Which democratically elected leader are you referring to?

You mean Ngo Dinh Diem who seized control of the government in 55?

Or Duong Van Minh, who took control after staging a coup that murdered Diem in 63?

Or Nguyen Khanh who staged a coup in 64 that replaced Minh?

Or Nguyen Van Thieu who staged a coup in 1965?

Yes, Thieu held an "election" in 67, but he then rigged the election in 71.

Some democracy.
Tingkai is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 10:38   #123
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai


Democracy? In South Vietnam?

Which democratically elected leader are you referring to?

You mean Ngo Dinh Diem who seized control of the government in 55?

Or Duong Van Minh, who took control after staging a coup that murdered Diem in 63?

Or Nguyen Khanh who staged a coup in 64 that replaced Minh?

Or Nguyen Van Thieu who staged a coup in 1965?

Yes, Thieu held an "election" in 67, but he then rigged the election in 71.

Some democracy.
All true. I also remember that the debates then about whether a primitive people could support a democratic government. The arguments of the opponents of the war of course stated that our efforts would meet with failure.

I think the failure of democracy in Vietnam had a lot to do with the fact that there was no peace, not that the people themselves did not want democracy or were incapable of supporting it.

I note that the same arguments about democracy are again being raised by the left in their opposition to our efforts in Iraq.

All this goes to show is that the left are hypocrites on issue of human rights and basic freedoms. The left seems to be very much enamored with authoritarian governments so long as those governments go through the proper motions of denouncing corporations and capitalism.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

Last edited by Ned; February 24, 2004 at 11:35.
Ned is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 11:28   #124
Cookie Monster
King
 
Cookie Monster's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: New England
Posts: 1,310
Quote:
Originally posted by CharlesBHoff


Unless we are willing to undertake military action against Vietman we chould do nothing as it is none of our bussienes. How about our support for the party in Cambodia which murrder how many million of people which only Vietman have the mortal cought to get rid of when their free Cambodia from those murderous thug support by neocom in Washington.
WRT taking action in foreign countries I think we should solve our domestic problems first. But that will never happen.

Anyway butchery happens on a daily basis and it doesn't matter to those who have the power to do something about it. They can at least voice protest or consider economic sanctions. Or go to the UN.

However I'm very disgusted with mankind these days. It seems that people in power have only one goal. To get rich and to stay in power no matter what. The little people are all expendable..
__________________
signature not visible until patch comes out.
Cookie Monster is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 11:41   #125
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Quote:
Originally posted by Cookie Monster


WRT taking action in foreign countries I think we should solve our domestic problems first. But that will never happen.

Anyway butchery happens on a daily basis and it doesn't matter to those who have the power to do something about it. They can at least voice protest or consider economic sanctions. Or go to the UN.

However I'm very disgusted with mankind these days. It seems that people in power have only one goal. To get rich and to stay in power no matter what. The little people are all expendable..
That is why democracy is essential. That is why our cause in Vietnam was just.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:13   #126
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
All true. I also remember that the debates then about whether a primitive people could support a democratic government. The arguments of the opponents of the war of course stated that our efforts would meet with failure.
You mean the debates by sets of arrogant white men who were mostly interested in how they could get a bunch of gooks to consistently support the white master's geopolitical aims?

Quote:
I think the failure of democracy in Vietnam had a lot to do with the fact that there was no peace, not that the people themselves did not want democracy or were incapable of supporting it.
The failure of democracy was a result of the fact that all those who held, or would be allowed to hold, any power were connected to one or more of the military, an elitist Catholic minority who detested the peasants, French ex-colonial interests, and/or American geopolitical interests. On the flip side, you had the commies. The US was not interested in real democracy, because real democracy wouldn't have elected corrupt puppets to serve US interests. It would have most likely elected corrupt thugs who served their own interests.

Quote:
I note that the same arguments about democracy are again being raised by the left in their opposition to our efforts in Iraq.
Not just on the left, bucko. If you claim to think that people in the third world (whether Iraq, Vietnam, Haiti, or anyplace else) are going to naturally elect leaders who will see their country's "proper" role vis-a-vis US policy and happily go along with the program, then I know you're trolling, because you're not that dumb.

Quote:
All this goes to show is that the left are hypocrites on issue of human rights and basic freedoms. The left seems to be very much enamored with authoritarian governments so long as those governments go through the proper motions of denouncing corporations and capitalism.
As opposed to the right's hypocrisy of hyping illusory freedom and fraudulent democracy, while supporting whatever arrangement promotes US interests? At least in the old days, empires had the balls and the basic honesty to proclaim themselves as such.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:24   #127
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:26   #128
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?
He's an unreconstructed Confederate.
DinoDoc is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:30   #129
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
I also agree that the military strategy and execution was abysmal. I think the primary reason for this was that it was too much controlled by Johnson and McNamara and not by the military itself.
This is a lie. The military was in command. It may be true that Johnson picked the targets, but the list of targets was given to him by the military. With the exception of a ten mile zone south of the Chinese border, every target in Vietnam was hit. The military got what they wanted, the way they wanted it, with the exception of an invasion of North Vietnam. The only thing the politicians didn't let the military do ws start WWIII.

Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:32   #130
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
yes, john kerry is a commie, john kerry eats babies, john kerry commits genocide...


god, conservatives are such morons
edit: on second thought... I can't be sure ALL of them are... just many or most
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:44   #131
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


This is a lie. The military was in command. It may be true that Johnson picked the targets, but the list of targets was given to him by the military. With the exception of a ten mile zone south of the Chinese border, every target in Vietnam was hit. The military got what they wanted, the way they wanted it, with the exception of an invasion of North Vietnam. The only thing the politicians didn't let the military do ws start WWIII.

Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?
Well, that is not the whole story, now is it?

Besides, not invading NV was critical to the failure in Vietnam.
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:45   #132
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Ned, why do you hate the truth so much?
because it doesn't fit in with his right-wing propaganda
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:57   #133
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Besides, not invading NV was critical to the failure in Vietnam.
It was also critical to the survival of the human species.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 13:17   #134
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


It was also critical to the survival of the human species.
OMFG THOSE DAMNED BASTARDS JOHNSON AND MACNAMARA PREVENTED A NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST OMFG THOSE ****ING COMMIES!
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 13:25   #135
Capt Dizle
ACDG3 Gaians
King
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,657
Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
He's an unreconstructed Confederate.
As I am. This is probably why I favor Edwards over Kerry, truth be told.

It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.
Capt Dizle is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 13:27   #136
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmytrick


As I am. This is probably why I favor Edwards over Kerry, truth be told.

It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.
you'd probably vote hitler if he was from the south over jesus christ if he were from the north....

that's sad...

you should care about POLICIES and not where someone is from...

that being said, I like Edwards better too
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 13:28   #137
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by jimmytrick
It would take a lot to get me to vote for a northerner over a southerner.
WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA!?!?!
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 13:29   #138
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659


I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 13:54   #139
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk


I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.
care to sum them up in a shortened form? I'm too lazy to go back and read
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 13:57   #140
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk


I suppose I should be pleased that my points are so unassailable that no one makes an attempt.
Actually, they were so dumb no one bothered.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 13:59   #141
Tingkai
Prince
 
Local Time: 02:15
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
All this goes to show is that the left are hypocrites on issue of human rights and basic freedoms.


So in order to protect human rights, democracy and basic freedoms in Vietnam, the US government had to prop up corrupt dictators who gained power through military coups and who you say committed war crimes.



This pales in comparison to hypocrisy towards Kerry.

Kerry fought bravely for his country and then tried to bring the boys back home from a useless war.

Yet you claim he is a traitor and should be shot. Why? Because Kerry said some American troops committed war crimes in Vietnam and you say that is a lie that unfairly attacks American veterans.

You then say that Kerry, a veteran, committed war crimes while serving in Vietnam.

Tingkai is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 14:01   #142
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?
Nothing to do with hating the US. The US as a whole is generally distinct from the more malicious and arrogant aspects of it's foreign policy.

Oh, yes, and because I'm an unreconstructed Confederate.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 14:12   #143
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Oh, yes, and because I'm an unreconstructed Confederate.
we're going to liberate your ass next biyatch!
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 17:32   #144
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
MtG, you mostly are a very sensible person. Why do you hate the US so much?
Oh Ned... I bet now I'm a liberal (because I've been defending Kerry) and MtG is the next coming of bin Laden to you .
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 17:37   #145
GePap
Emperor
 
GePap's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: of the Big Apple
Posts: 4,109
Imran, who knows the ins and outs of the Nedaverse? I doubt even Ned has a map of that dangerous place.
__________________
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
GePap is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 19:56   #146
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Imran, you can defend Kerry if you like.

BTW, where do you come out on the Vietnam war?
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
Ned is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 20:46   #147
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
I think it's unfortunate. I mean, if we realized what Ho Chi Minh was after, we wouldn't have had to fight him. He was simply a nationalist and because we made him our enemy, he went to China and Russia. If we were actually backing a democracy, then it would have made some sense, but we were propping up a brutal dictatorship.

In addition to that we did some really rotten stuff in Vietnam. Not a very proud moment for the country, that is sure.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old February 24, 2004, 21:08   #148
Agathon
Mac
Emperor
 
Agathon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:15
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
...is absolutely sure to win the transexual vote.
Attached Thumbnails:
Click image for larger version

Name:	barbarella.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	63.2 KB
ID:	65231  
__________________
Only feebs vote.
Agathon is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 14:15.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team