Gay Marriage views at Apolyton

[Imran Siddiqui]

You have the worst timing with attempts at humor, don't you, Jaguar??

At least his are funny .

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

You have the worst timing with attempts at humor, don't you, Jaguar??

At least his are funny .

yeah, uh-huh

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by MrFun
Bullsh*t!

You knew the context in your use of this word was a bigoted slur, so stop pretending innocence.

Which word did you object to, Mr'Fun'? Was it **** or ****, or perhaps ****?

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Lousy article. Not well thought out at all.

I agree. My post about 10 pages back said pretty much the same thing but was much more concise.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
I am surprised by how many posters want polygamy to be legal. Where is that coming from?

From the fact there is hardly any reason to make it illegal more than other forms of marriage?

[Rogan Josh]

It is interesting to note that almost all the pro-gay rights arguments are based on the idea that people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively.

First of all, do you think this is always the right criterion? There has been a lot of media fuss lately about the guy in Germany who killed and ate his gay lover. His lover alledgedly gave consent to this, so this was an action between two consenting adults. Was this OK? I would say not, and indeed he has been charged with murder. Now, in this case I agree things are not very clear - the 'victim' may not have been of sound mind - but imagine if one could gain an OK from a psychiatrist that one was of sane mind and give permission for the act in writing and in front of witnesses. Would it then be OK?

The same is true for genuine suicide (i.e. where the suicidee is certified sane).

My second objection to this philosophy is that we are all members of the same society. If the society is altered in any way, it affects all of us. If gay marriage becomes legal then our society is altered and things change, which affects people who disapprove of gay marriage. Therefore to say that the people who object to gay marriage have no right to object (because it is a private matter) is plain wrong. You who are arguing for gay-marriage presumably like the changes it will cause in society, but you should acknowledge that some people would be negatively affected too. (This was the point I was trying to make just before Ming started making nasty remarks about me to other posters.)

[Ming]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
(This was the point I was trying to make just before Ming started making nasty remarks about me to other posters.)

First... you were the one that made the NASTY remark that generated complaints... I was just doing my job and warning you to stop. If you want to continue this silly game, I will end it by restricting you... So stop with the crap and stay on topic.

[Ben Kenobi]

homosexuality is distinct from paedophilia in that children cannot consent to sex and that it seems to irreparably damage them in most cases.

Thank you.

I tell you the trolls are knee deep in the thread.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Ming
First... you were the one that made the NASTY remark that generated complaints... I was just doing my job and warning you to stop. If you want to continue this silly game, I will end it by restricting you... So stop with the crap and stay on topic.

My post was on topic. The part you quote was also on topic since it was pointing out which post I had made this point in earlier, ie. the one just before where you said to Ben, not to me but about me, that "He's just being offensive.". I fail to see how talking about me to other posters is anything to do with 'warning me'?

So lets stay on topic Ming - what is your opinion on the points I raised?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
So lets stay on topic Ming - what is your opinion on the points I raised?

Yes... stay on topic... I only responded when you felt it was neccessary to add "This was the point I was trying to make just before Ming started making nasty remarks about me to other posters" to your last post... so stop the silly games.

If you wish to continue the discussion about your comments and the complaints made... do it via PM. If you want to play the role of "a mod is abusing me"... take your complaints up with the owner and out of the forums. If you continue these mod baiting games in the forums, you are toast.

[Rogan Josh]

You didn't answer the question: what is your opinion on the points I raised?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
You didn't answer the question: what is your opinion on the points I raised?

I have made my opinion on this topic very clear in multiple other threads... I see no point in continuing the discussion with people who will not be changing their opinion anyway.
I have better things to do with my time

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
You who are arguing for gay-marriage presumably like the changes it will cause in society, but you should acknowledge that some people would be negatively affected too.

Every political stance is bound to meet disagreement by some people. If we follow your logic, we should do absolutely nothing at all in our lives, because someone will disagree ("be negatively affected" ) with it.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Ming
I see no point in continuing the discussion with people who will not be changing their opinion anyway.

Why do you think that? I have already had my mind changed about gay-'marriage' by this forum. I used to be pro, but the gay community here have persuaded me to be against. While you probably can't persuade the diehard posters like Boris, you may be able to sway some of the less gay-'marriage'-committed posters to the anti-gay-'marriage' stance.

Don't be so negative

[Spiffor]

Rogan:
I'm curious. What arguments did sway you into opposing gay marriage?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Every political stance is bound to meet disagreement by some people. If we follow your logic, we should do absolutely nothing at all in our lives, because someone will disagree ("be negatively affected" ) with it.

No - I never said that. That would be very silly. I said that we should acknowledge that it affects other people too.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
No - I never said that. That would be very silly. I said that we should acknowledge that it affects other people too.

Well, indeed. We should see how much the conservative people (in the original meaning of frowning upon change) will be affected and compare it with how much homosexuals will be affected.

After a quick reflection, I think the happiness of marriage is infinitely more important than the shock of seeing society change.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Spiffor
After a quick reflection, I think the happiness of marriage is infinitely more important than the shock of seeing society change.

I don't think it is as simple as that. It is a matter of erosion - if every year you change society by a little bit, in 30 years it will be unrecognisable.

But that is not really the reason why I changed my mind. I actually would agree with you that the happiness of the gay community in this issue was more important than the smallish change in societal values that the conservatives would have to endure.

But this is only if this was a happiness issue - and here is where I have changed my mind. I have become convinced that this isn't about gay people having a better life - it is about political power. The gay community wants more and (perhaps more importantly) wants the traditional religious community to have less. By making gay 'marriage' legal it would make a statement that being gay is more acceptable than being religious (in a traditional sense). It would also cause havoc in the Christian churches.

Have you noticed that the gay posters here are (on the whole - not all of them) not agreeable to a 'civil union' which is not called 'marriage'. This semms to me to be because it would be a compromise which would not be so devise in the Christian community. Even though they would have the same rights as a married couple, it is not enough. They are not interested in getting happiness, but in making trouble for those who they perceive as their natural enemies.

[Spiffor]

Rogan:

I understand what you say, but I think this sort of 'anti-religious agenda' is more a shallow reaction to the original religious opposition, than the core of the demand for gay marriage.

Personally, I am not gay, and I support gay marriage over mere civl unions for a simple reason: marriage is a ceremony, it is a commitment you show to everybody else, it is the most beautiful day in your life. Civil unions are a piece of paper signed in a City Hall office.

My views may be different from yours because of my French backgrounds. In France, along with the religious marriages (that have no legal consequences whatsoever), there is the Civil marriage, where the spouses say "I do" in front of the mayor, the families etc. Only the civil marriage is acknowledged by the law. So, to me, "marriage" is definitely not only related with religion and different from civil unions in that regard.

BTW, if churches don't want to perform gay marriages, let them do what they want. It's not like they are the ones who decide who gets married at all, or not.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


I don't think it is as simple as that. It is a matter of erosion - if every year you change society by a little bit, in 30 years it will be unrecognisable.

Which hasn´t to be a bad thing of course,
as unrecognisable could also mean, that society has altered in a way,
which guarantees a happy and productive life to all of its Members.

Originally posted by Rogan Josh

But this is only if this was a happiness issue - and here is where I have changed my mind. I have become convinced that this isn't about gay people having a better life - it is about political power. The gay community wants more and (perhaps more importantly) wants the traditional religious community to have less. By making gay 'marriage' legal it would make a statement that being gay is more acceptable than being religious (in a traditional sense). It would also cause havoc in the Christian churches.

Have you noticed that the gay posters here are (on the whole - not all of them) not agreeable to a 'civil union' which is not called 'marriage'. This semms to me to be because it would be a compromise which would not be so devise in the Christian community. Even though they would have the same rights as a married couple, it is not enough. They are not interested in getting happiness, but in making trouble for those who they perceive as their natural enemies.

I don´t know if they really disagree.
At least I haven´t seen them speaking openly against a Civil Union (which would grant them the full Rights of a Marriage).

So we should ask this Question once again to all Homosexual and also to all religious people:

"What would you think of a Civil Union between two consenting adults (regardless of gender), which gave those rights to them which you, at the moment, could only get through Marriage (such as tax advantages, adoption of children or rights to inheritance),
while at the same time leaving the term "marriage" for a religious ceremony (which wouldn´t grant those who "married" any more rights than you could get through a Civil Union)
Whereby Priests on the other hand have the right to decide for themselves, if they marry a member of theiur parish to another person (and so have the right to refuse a religious marriage of homosexuals, but have no influence if they want to undergo a civil union)."

So, if the gay members of Apolyton don´t answer this Question, you could be right with your statement.
Of course the same goes for the religious members of Apolyton

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Personally, I am not gay, and I support gay marriage over mere civl unions for a simple reason: marriage is a ceremony, it is a commitment you show to everybody else, it is the most beautiful day in your life. Civil unions are a piece of paper signed in a City Hall office.

My views may be different from yours because of my French backgrounds. In France, along with the religious marriages (that have no legal consequences whatsoever), there is the Civil marriage, where the spouses say "I do" in front of the mayor, the families etc. Only the civil marriage is acknowledged by the law. So, to me, "marriage" is definitely not only related with religion and different from civil unions in that regard.

I understand what you are saying (my wife is German, where there is also a civil marriage, and I have lived in France for the last few years) but I am surprised that it influenced your opinion in that way. I would advocate that all 'marriages' be done this way - first there would be a rather dull 'civil union' in front of the registrar, and then one would go off to have a party celebrating the event. The Christians can do this in a church as always with traditional vows etc, while gay couples can do it however they want. Then we leave the word 'marriage' (and the idea of marriage) to the church, but gay couples get the rights they (supposedly) want.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
... adoption of children ....

I am not so sure of that bit - I think adoptive parents for children should be chosen with care, based on their individual merits. I would consider two parents of the same sex to be disadvantageous (but no more so than overly strict parents who use corporal punishment for example).

Otherwise, I (as a Christian) would be in favour of this (obviously).

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh

I am not so sure of that bit - I think adoptive parents for children should be chosen with care, based on their individual merits. I would consider two parents of the same sex to be disadvantageous (but no more so than overly strict parents who use corporal punishment for example).

Otherwise, I (as a Christian) would be in favour of this (obviously).

They should be chosen with care, I agree on this.
But I don´t think that it matters whether it is a heterosexual couple that adopts them or a homosexual couple.
After all there are more children in Orphanages than there are people who are willing to adopt children.

And I think a kid will have a much better life with homosexual Parents who really love it, than with being raised in an Orphanage (and I have no doubt that you agree with me, that homosexual couples are as able to love their adopted children and be responsible Parents, as heterosexual couples are).

Therefore I think we shouldn´t exclude homosexual Couples from adopting children.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah, I agree with that, but preference should be given to families with a mom and dad.

"What would you think of a Civil Union between two consenting adults (regardless of gender), which gave those rights to them which you, at the moment, could only get through Marriage (such as tax advantages, adoption of children or rights to inheritance),
while at the same time leaving the term "marriage" for a religious ceremony (which wouldn´t grant those who "married" any more rights than you could get through a Civil Union)

Whereby Priests on the other hand have the right to decide for themselves, if they marry a member of theiur parish to another person (and so have the right to refuse a religious marriage of homosexuals, but have no influence if they want to undergo a civil union)."

Couple points here.

1. I believe the state has the right to grant benefits to married people over those of any other relationships.

2. I believe that these benefits do not construe rights as such, cannot be placed as a entitlement by those who get married.

3. I am not opposed to civil unions, provided that the government retain the right of review, and of the ability to dispose benefits as they see fit. The government should be able to change things, if we start to see some unforeseen consequences.

4. Again, these civil unions do not confer 'rights' as such.

5. Protection of clergy from those who wish to pressure them into recognition of these relationships. There needs to be more protection of religious freedoms.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
There needs to be official sanctioning of Christianity from the government.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
It is interesting to note that almost all the pro-gay rights arguments are based on the idea that people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively.

Yes, and it seems to me that this can't be right all the time. That doesn't mean that it can't be right in this case.

There is a a massive gap between rejecting this principle and endorsing Christian morality.

[Ned]

I understand that there is a second form of constitutional amendment being floated. It says that the issue of gay marriage should be decided by the states individually (i.e., no full faith and credit?), but only by the legislatures or by the people.

I wonder how this would fly in the Kerry campaign? It also seems to reflect Schwarzenegger's views.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


I understand what you are saying (my wife is German, where there is also a civil marriage, and I have lived in France for the last few years) but I am surprised that it influenced your opinion in that way. I would advocate that all 'marriages' be done this way - first there would be a rather dull 'civil union' in front of the registrar, and then one would go off to have a party celebrating the event. The Christians can do this in a church as always with traditional vows etc, while gay couples can do it however they want. Then we leave the word 'marriage' (and the idea of marriage) to the church, but gay couples get the rights they (supposedly) want.

Ahh, but here's where your arguement starts to fall apart:

You and your church and not the representative voice for all Christians.

There are right now, in the US and Canada (maybe Europe too, I don't know), Christian churches that are perfectly willing to perform gay marriages. If you pass a law banning "marriages" for homosexuals, then aren't you still impinging on religious freedom?

[Thorn]

PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

He cometh on to thee, THOU SHALL PENETRATE THE LORD OUR SAVIOR!

THE DEVIL HAS PLACED HIS FILTHY SELF BEHIND JESUS, IT IS AN ABOMINATION!!

[Sava]

rofl