View Poll Results: Your views on Marriage (foreigners select elsewhere answers only please)
I live in USA: Heterosexual Marriage Only 13 7.22%
I live in USA: Homosexual Civil Unions Only 9 5.00%
I live in USA: Full Homosexual Marriage Rights 45 25.00%
I live in USA: #3 + Further Extend Rights to Polygamy 17 9.44%
I live in USA: #1 only and extending rights to Polygamy 0 0%
I live in USA: Extend Marriage to Bannanas 4 2.22%
Elsewhere: Heterosexual Marriage Only 16 8.89%
Elsewhere: Homosexual Civil Unions Only 11 6.11%
Elsewhere: Full Homosexual Marriage Rights 46 25.56%
Elsewhere: #9 + Further Extend Rights to Polygamy 13 7.22%
Elsewhere: #7 only and extending rights to Polygamy 1 0.56%
Elsewhere: Extend Marriage to Bannanas 5 2.78%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old February 26, 2004, 19:47   #91
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Yes. Marriage originates in the enslavement of women in order to ensure that men can ensure their offsrping really are theirs. At some point, as with mst things, religion clouded up the real, practical origins of the institution, and made it dogma.

Both marriage and organized religion originated about the same time, the neolithic revolution.
Hm,
I always thought about it as being some kind of Ritual for the couple to receive Blessings from God (or the God responsible for Fertility) to give them lots of healthy offspring.

But I agree, from the standpoint of ethology it makes more sense to assume that marriage evolved as a means to ensure that all offspring are from the same male.
After all it is one of the most important factors in the behavior of most male animals to ensure, that as much offspring as possible carry their genes.
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Old February 26, 2004, 19:49   #92
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I'm not denying any rights.
yes yes I didn't mean a right like the right to vote. question is still valid tho. the convenience of the legal consequence isnt a very convincing argument in this arena.

it would have helped obviously if u would not have just one lined me and answered the real part of my post too tho. good faith arguing and all.
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Old February 26, 2004, 21:54   #93
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes. Marriage originates in the enslavement of women in order to ensure that men can ensure their offsrping really are theirs. At some point, as with mst things, religion clouded up the real, practical origins of the institution, and made it dogma.

Both marriage and organized religion originated about the same time, the neolithic revolution.
I am not sure if your premise holds water when looked at from a cross-cultural or a cross-species perspective, but one would think that you are overestimating the knowledge available in the Neolithic. Such an enslavement would be rooted in short-term sex, not long-term reproduction.
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Old February 26, 2004, 22:23   #94
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There are problems with polygamy. Legal and otherwise. I like the idea of civil union for 2, marriage (considered relative) for as many as you like. Besides, solution = open marriage.
Of course, pooftie rights are taken for granted in this post.
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Old February 26, 2004, 22:52   #95
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Nothing imaginary about God.
Is to, infinity!

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Secondly, didn't you admit that 80% of the US is religious? Religion is the norm at least in American society.
Norm and normal are two different things. Most people have psychological disorders. This is not a normal thing. It is disfunctional, even if it the norm.
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Old February 26, 2004, 23:00   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes. Marriage originates in the enslavement of women in order to ensure that men can ensure their offsrping really are theirs. At some point, as with mst things, religion clouded up the real, practical origins of the institution, and made it dogma.

Both marriage and organized religion originated about the same time, the neolithic revolution.
I am not sure if your premise holds water when looked at from a cross-cultural or a cross-species perspective, but one would think that you are overestimating the knowledge available in the Neolithic. Such an enslavement would be rooted in short-term sex, not long-term reproduction.
From a cross-species perspective it seem to bolster my case. Most mammals limit their breeding to an alpha male, female, or both. There are exceptions with solitary mamals, like bears and such as well as animals like dolphins and bonbos who will boink anything that moves practically.

Cross-culturally it's harder for me to say, as I haven't studied all of them. However, as far as arising in the neolithic, that's when anthropologists are pretty sure it arose. That's the point at which animal husbandry allows men to realize that men have something to do with reproduction (as opposed to sex just being fun). It is also when wealth begins to accumulate and fathers want to be able to pass the wealth on to their children. In order to do so, they needed to know who their children were, hence the enslavement of women.

At least that's the current theory. Could be wrong.
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Old February 26, 2004, 23:25   #97
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What's interesting is that the percentage of americans who support full marriage rights is actually greater than the percentage of people from elsewhere with the same belief.
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Old February 27, 2004, 06:08   #98
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is nothing sacred about the drive thru wedding ministered by Elvisthat only ends in divorce the next day. People are far too ignorant to put two and two together. There were newstories about high divorce rates, and how that was tearing down the fmaily which "one of the most important institutions in America!". But now marriage is this great sacred bond, and it always lasts forever, and is never cheapened or violated by black widows or golddiggers, or anything like that!
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Old February 27, 2004, 06:15   #99
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Is to, infinity!
OMG!

PWNED!!!11!!!

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Norm and normal are two different things. Most people have psychological disorders. This is not a normal thing. It is disfunctional, even if it the norm.
Right. So 80% of the folks of America have a psychological disorder.

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Old February 27, 2004, 13:10   #100
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Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Right. So 80% of the folks of America have a psychological disorder.


No -- just you.
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Old February 27, 2004, 13:12   #101
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Marriage is religious and should stay that way. Laws should be for civil unions and should treat everyone the same. The two should not be mixed.
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Old February 27, 2004, 13:31   #102
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Right. So 80% of the folks of America have a psychological disorder.

Naturally, I was only including the religious people who think that marriage must be defined as being between a female and male humans. That, IIRC, is under 50%.
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Old February 27, 2004, 15:34   #103
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Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Right. So 80% of the folks of America have a psychological disorder.

80% is the percentage of Christians. You people aren't the only religious people in America, you know. 95% of Americans are religious. Anyway, 100% of Americans have a psychological disorder or some kind.It's just that 95% of them believe in invisible friends in addition to any other problems they might have.

You believe in something which can't be seen, touched, felt, measured, which exists outside time and space, and yet someone how influences reality, all cause someone told you it exists. Yeah, I call that a neurosis.
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Old February 27, 2004, 16:29   #104
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Gay marriage is something I'm undecided on.
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Old February 27, 2004, 16:56   #105
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You believe in something which can't be seen, touched, felt, measured, which exists outside time and space, and yet someone how influences reality, all cause someone told you it exists. Yeah, I call that a neurosis.
Bennie refuses to respect gays, and you refuse to respect non-bigoted religious people -- it's hard for me to pick which one is more evil.
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Old February 27, 2004, 17:11   #106
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Anyway, 100% of Americans have a psychological disorder or some kind.It's just that 95% of them believe in invisible friends in addition to any other problems they might have.
100% of the people have psychological disorders?

Well, if religious belief is a mental problem, one can only speculate as to which mental problems communists are afflicted.
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Old February 27, 2004, 17:13   #107
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Naturally, I was only including the religious people who think that marriage must be defined as being between a female and male humans
Yeah, it's a mental problem called common sense.
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Old February 27, 2004, 17:15   #108
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Bennie refuses to respect gays,
So to respect someone, I must agree with everything they do? That's a pretty narrow definition. By that definition, I don't agree with everything Catholics do, does that mean I do not respect my girlfriend, who is a Catholic?
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Old February 27, 2004, 17:23   #109
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bananas need love too !!!
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Old February 27, 2004, 17:53   #110
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Well, if religious belief is a mental problem, one can only speculate as to which mental problems communists are afflicted.
Well I have a messiah complex.
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Old February 27, 2004, 17:56   #111
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Heh, I like your new avatar Che.
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:01   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Bennie refuses to respect gays, and you refuse to respect non-bigoted religious people -- it's hard for me to pick which one is more evil.
You don't chose to be gay, but you do chose to believe in grown-up Santa Claus. I see no reason to respect someone who believes something so silly as an invisible spirit which loves you, made you, but can't be detected and will torture you for all eternity if you don't love him back.

On top of that, you only believe it because some shepard 5,000 years ago said its true. Well heck, shepards 5,000 years ago believed a lot of crazy things. Why pick one shepard over another? Because he wrote it down? Because a group of religious fanatics seized control of the most powerful empire in the West and forced everyone to believe on pain of torture and death?

Yeah, I'm gonna respect that. You and Ben are both crazy.
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:01   #113
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These are the sort of questions that really make me appreciate America's religious freedom; what would I do if I couldn't thank God for the banana option?
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:01   #114
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Heh, I like your new avatar Che.
T'anks!
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:10   #115
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On top of that, you only believe it because some shepard 5,000 years ago said its true.
Not that long ago, Che. If you are referring to Christ, he's a carpenter, not a shepherd.

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Why pick one shepard over another? Because he wrote it down?
No, because of the resurrection.

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Because a group of religious fanatics seized control of the most powerful empire in the West and forced everyone to believe on pain of torture and death?
After kicking the *** out of believers for 3 centuries?
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:26   #116
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Quote:
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Not that long ago, Che. If you are referring to Christ, he's a carpenter, not a shepherd.
It starts with Abraham

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No, because of the resurrection.
Which you only believe in because someone told you it happened.

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After kicking the *** out of believers for 3 centuries?
Irrelevent. At the time the Christians seized control of the Empire, it was still a minority religion. It only became the majority because it outlawed all other religions. If they hadn't done that, there's a good possiblity we'd be Odinists or Wiccans or some other pagan religion.
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:28   #117
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:28   #118
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How would an omnipresent being be anything but invisible? If He were visible, you couldn't tell, because you'd never have been able to see any space that wasn't occupied by God. God could "look" like something we regard as just an aspect of light itself. And interestingly enough, I don't think the Bible ever says God is the one doing the torturing. He is said to send people to a place of torment, but that torment could easily be self-inflicted.

Think about it. Suppose you had a deadbeat son. He lounges around the house all day pulling pranks on his brothers, he refuses to work or help around the house, he swears at visitors, and no punishment or reasoning can get him to change. What do you do? Forcibly prevent him from being a heel? You can't do that forever, and a life of forced good behavior is not a kindness. Neither is it fair to let him keep making everyone else in the house miserable. The best option is to boot his butt out of the house until such time as he learns to behave himself and decides he wants to. Then he can come back. He'll probably screw his life up plenty and make himself thoroughly miserable in the interim, but there's nothing else you can do without taking away his freedom or feeding his disease. And that, I think, is Hell.

It might also be why the kid isn't allowed to see his father, to extend the metaphor. We have a bad tendency to see God as a big brother spoiling our fun, and one of the messages of Christianity is that a lot of our "fun" was never that fun to begin with. An obvious God can be resented and fought. This way, even a nonbeliever can decide to get his life in order on his own, then surrender his pride after he's learned how useless it really is.
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:40   #119
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Although Elok your defination of hell is closer to the true one, the problem with Christians both Protestant and Catholic is that they are both from the same roots. The Catholic Church in its effort to gain power has warped what Jesus has said.... to the point that Jesus is frustrated with both of these groups. Looking at Heresy texts such as the Gospel of Thomas give a more accurate view of what Jesus said and wanted. No where is homosexuality discussed by Jesus.

And if you recall the passage in the bible about "a man lying with another man is an abomination" this entire section was an outline for a certain sect of Jewish Preists only, so keep things in context please. Unless you practice what you preach, not eating pork...etc.....
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Old February 27, 2004, 18:50   #120
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