Demigod - play-a-long strategy

lethe · February 26, 2004, 03:44

Inspired by MS wonderful thread Emperor games C3C: how to improve your skills I thought it was time for the same thing, but for Demigod. Patch is 1.15b

First out is Shogun Tokugawa on a large map. It's archipelago, 70% water, sedentary barbarians, 5 billion years, wet and temperate. As you can see a somewhat cooked map, but it should still provide us with a good challenge as we make the leap from emperor to demigod. It's now the AI starts getting some real bonuses.

There are 9 opponents, though our backward people don't know who they are.

There are no additional conditions for winning, all victories except wonder are enabled.

Edit: I am a dofus, so start position moved to next post.

Download the right save here: demi2.sav

lethe · February 26, 2004, 03:53

So, this is what our starting position looks like:

anarchie · February 26, 2004, 04:44

(Out of context)

lethe · February 26, 2004, 07:06

This start position has a nasty surprise that probably makes it very, very much harder than it appears.

It was the one I originally posted, and some of you might want to do something out of a river and two cows.

But it's not as paradisical as it looks.

DrSpike · February 26, 2004, 09:27

Which start are we supposed to play? I recommend you play till at least 2000BC before posting saves for comparison games.

lethe · February 26, 2004, 09:43

demi2.sav, the one I linked in the top post.

Sorry bout the confusion. I'm blonde, what can I say.

And I did play it to about 750bc before posting. But it wasn't until 450bc when I built the GL I realized that it wasn't a paradise start. Well, as usual I just got to screw up once in the beginning. It's a good luck charm or something.

DrSpike · February 26, 2004, 09:50

Ok thanks. Now I have to choose between this game and the one in MS's thread.

vmxa1 · February 26, 2004, 14:33

To bad you made it a large map. Why are there only 9 civs for a large?

What is the demigod save, is it a new game or a tweak to demi2?

lethe · February 26, 2004, 16:36

No, the demigod save is the first one I posted. It's just there if someone got interested, as there was a brief discussion about it. (Which is now completely nonsensical since I edited my original post.)

I vary map size alot, this time it's large. And I underpopulated it by 2 to ease the transition from emperor to demigod, as I was hoping to drag a few more over the chasm.

Feel free to chime in with an interesting start position. (In a couple of days, I still got a long way to go on this one.)

vmxa1 · February 26, 2004, 17:30

Quote:

Originally posted by lethe

I vary map size alot, this time it's large. And I underpopulated it by 2 to ease the transition from emperor to demigod, as I was hoping to drag a few more over the chasm.

I was presuming you felt that less civs would make it easier, so I was really asking what reasons you had for that.

I am not sure if having less will make it easier or not. If it gives you more room, then it probably does. If you still have the same number of civs on your land mass as you would have, then it could back fire.

It could let some other civ become a KAI. I guess it would slow down the research a tad, but that will not be a big factor.

So I am just wondering how others see using fewer or more than the normal number of civs in a given game or map.

lethe · February 26, 2004, 17:49

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
I was presuming you felt that less civs would make it easier, so I was really asking what reasons you had for that.

In general I feel that fewer civs makes the earlier parts of the game easier, up to the late middle ages, while it makes the industrial and modern eras harder. Which imho is just the right thing,

It might just be my playing style though.

vmxa1 · February 26, 2004, 19:46

If you run into a KAI amd you probably will, the late game will be harder and tedious. Actually, I am starting to feel that the game gets tedious with Steam. Laying rails is very tedious.

bvoncranium · February 26, 2004, 20:02

Quote:

100th post by lethe:
In general I feel that fewer civs makes the earlier parts of the game easier, up to the late middle ages, while it makes the industrial and modern eras harder. Which imho is just the right thing,
It might just be my playing style though.

Congrats on attaining Warlord poster status lethe.

Aqualung71 · February 26, 2004, 22:09

Well I downloaded the original start position and played last night to around 400AD....as expected, miles behind most AI's in tech.

I can't really go and play the new start cos now I've seen most of the map. So what was the nasty surprise - no iron?

lethe · February 27, 2004, 02:00

The new start isn't on the same map, so that shouldn't be a problem.

And yes, an early nasty surprise usually means missing out on the iron sweepstakes. I guess I could as well have said it.

Aqualung71 · February 27, 2004, 03:04

Ok, thanks. I may go and try the new map if this one gets too hard - which it may well do.

I've just entered the Middle Ages, probably 7 or 8 techs behind the leaders, madly gifting whatever techs I have to the 2 AI's who are stupid enough to be behind even me, in the forlorn hope they may research something different to me and swap techs! Luckily no AI has declared on me yet, but I've built a reasonable number of spears (whoopee!) as defense just in case. They probably think I'm too puny to worry about - that's why they're all polite.

But the lack of iron is not a good thing for Japan on Demi-God. No Samurai for a start (that is assuming I ever get to Chivalry). My best trading partner is England who can provide me with Iron if I can raise the cash, but then it's probably them that I will need to invade with my Samurai....and if they get Riflemen first then that strategy will disappear. My best hope is to turn it to my benefit with a well timed GA.

Another more subtle difficulty is the fact that this map starts you smack bang in the middle of a continent with no coast in sight. I think only my 4th or 5th city was coastal, which meant the Curragh build took longer and so contact was slower.

At the moment I'm focusing on pushing my towns to pop 7 cities to curb the crippling unit support costs I've just incurred by changing to Republic. Methinks Monarchy would have been better, so I may change - might as well use the benefit of being Religious!

The one important thing I've been able to practice on this map for probably the first time is the settler pump. I think I'm finally starting to understand it now and had my capital producing settlers non-stop for a few thousand years. My biggest problem is forgetting to move the luxury slider up on that last turn when you add a pop but your build has 1 turn to go - so time and time again I suffered a turn of disorder and kicked myself!

Another thing I've learned (I haven't played many Demigod games so far) is that early tech research choice is critically important if you are going to stay in touch with the tech leaders. You can no longer expect to research techs first very often, which means you may not get the chance to trade techs with the AI. Every time I finished a tech I found the AI's I knew had just discovered it too and were moving ahead of me. Only when I switched to Literature (which the C3C AI researches very late) did I catch up at all - eventually hawking it around for about 9 or 10 other ancient age techs after spending 30 minutes looking at the foreign advisor's screen to work out which permutation of trades would give me the most techs. And that put me only about 8 techs behind the leaders!!!!! relatively late contact with AI civ's due to the start position (and lower number of civ's than normal) has almost certainly contributed to the difficulty in trading techs early and compounded into the situation I've described.

On the other hand, perhaps my play just sucks! Anyway, good fun! Somebody else try it - it's not that bad but very challenging. I could use the advice!

Aqualung71 · February 27, 2004, 03:25

DP - sorry

vmxa1 · February 27, 2004, 14:25

One of the things about the levels at Demi or higher is the knight level UU's can be a problem. It is not so easy to get to Chiv without a war, unless you are some what isolated.

I would definetly want an ancient era UU for Deity or Sid or is surrounded by other civs at Demi.

That does not even take in consideration any resource requirements.

Aqualung71 · February 27, 2004, 20:47

Yep, you're spot on. Knight-equivalent UU can be useless by the time you get to it, given how far behind you will probably be in techs (although that could be just me!).

Aqualung71 · February 29, 2004, 23:36

This game only gets harder! Started off with no Iron......then no Saltpeter.....and now no Coal....yay!!! Lethe, you were right - a masochists game. Was this a totally random map with respect to resource distribution? If so, AU501'ers should have a look at this map for an example of how the map generator can seriously skew the resource distribution.

Anyway, I have valiantly lumbered on and I'll provide a brief summary of action so far, for the benefit of anyone who decides to try this one and wants some comparisons.

I'll start with my lucky break - I traded for Saltpeter from the English 2 turns before the Mayan Cavalry arrived on my doorstep and declared war, so I had a few Muskets upgraded. I also traded for Iron at an exorbitant price (from memory ~150gpt), dropping my research to zero in a big gamble, and started on some Samurai. I placed one in some English territory in the way of oncoming Mayan Cavalry who obliged me with my GA - quite well timed - mid-middle ages. I was hoping this would help me catch up somewhat. The gamble paid off and the income boost allowed me to restart researching. Started eventually catching up on tech with some decent trading with "Group B" countries, of which I was one but moving through the ranks. Started pumping out more units to keep Maya at bay - eventually Muskets and Cavalry. By the time I got into the Industrial age I was only around 4 techs behind the leaders, and still in GA (since I'd traded for most of the remaining middle-ages techs)....but then my normal Industrial age strategy was shattered by the discovery that there was no Coal within my borders (the 4th largest nation on earth).

Greece, formally one of the top few nations, had started slipping. Japan had now overtaken them in economic and military might and was sitting 4th in the pecking order behind Maya, the decaying English regime (at the hands of threatening KAI neighbour Maya) and very solid Spain (my gracious Saltpeter provider....and who wouldn't be at 80gpt?). Casting his eye over the recently acquired world map (again through tech trading....initially other civ's wanted something like 200g + 50gpt for their maps....I mean, sheesh!), the Emperor of Japan suddenly found what he was looking for. By some quirk of fate, an unclaimed Coal resource was lying in a jungle next to a square of war-created no-man's-land between Greece and May, within a few years journey by Galleon. Casting his eye further into Greek territory, the Emperor's strategy crystallized - 3 Greek cities lay just south of the Coal resource containing Saltpeter, Iron, another Coal and Dyes. Add to this the Greek Horse city on the Japanese mainland and the offshore Greek island containing Dyes, and the Emperor saw in a moment the future security of his nation. This was a crystal-clear (and very rare in Civ terms) opportunity to quickly consolidate all immediately required resources in a short sharp strike, all within a few years

march of each other. The Emperor had built a very good reputation with the other great civilizations of the world (not out of choice mind you - he just couldn't subdue their Cavalry with his bows and arrows and spears). But now he would have to risk that reputation by invading Greece. This was self-preservation, not empire building. This was a time to secure the future of the Japanese people.

Japan put together a fleet of Galleons, and promptly started ferrying a settler, workers and military might to the nearby lands that would soon become a province of Japan. The resource poor country had insufficient resources to build naval escorts and the brave Galleon crews navigated their way across the seas alone in this dastardly age of Privateers. But fortune favours the brave (or the foolhardy) and the Emperor soon found himself with a new town, a Coal resource and some 25 units including his valiant Cavalry army, various additional Cavalry regiments and supporting Musketmen (undergoing training in the new Barracks to learn the skills of Riflemen).

The polite and unsuspecting Greek leader Alexander, had meanwhile agreed to supply Japan with the Iron needed to build its Factories and Railroads and continue to improve the efficiency of Japan's new industrial economy - ironically this greed for gpt would hasten his downfall.

Man, this is a challenging game. I haven't even been close to a wonder. It's now 1290AD and I am researching Ironclads (the AI hasn't so I'm hoping to trade for Replaceable Parts). US and ToE have both gone. Hoovers is still there, but my GA has ended and I'm still a few techs away from it. The planned Greek invasion is crucial to my victory chances - must get it done before they get Infantry.

lethe · March 1, 2004, 02:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Thriller
This game only gets harder! Started off with no Iron......then no Saltpeter.....and now no Coal....yay!!! Lethe, you were right - a masochists game. Was this a totally random map with respect to resource distribution? If so, AU501'ers should have a look at this map for an example of how the map generator can seriously skew the resource distribution.

Totally random. I haven't touched a thing on the map. If I had touched up things on the map I'd probably have made it easier on the players, as being smacked three times in a row in the sweepstakes isn't exactly an easy start on Demi-god.

I gave up at the salpeter, so I didn't even know about the coal.

I don't know if you did it, but I put two warrios and a city on the land bridge toward the English, and so managed to fill my entire peninsula before anyone had galleys to send over. Which probably put me in a winnable position, but without salpeter, and having payed through the nose for the Iron already... Well, that's where the second map came in. Which is proving somewhat difficult as well. (But not this resource nightmare.)

Aqualung71 · March 1, 2004, 03:26

Quote:

Originally posted by lethe

Totally random. I haven't touched a thing on the map.

In that case, Dom's AU501 resource tamper is nothing compared to this!

Quote:

I don't know if you did it, but I put two warrios and a city on the land bridge toward the English, and so managed to fill my entire peninsula before anyone had galleys to send over.

Essentially, yes. I didn't actually block the passage though. The land-bridge was 3 tiles wide so I put a city there and later another one further east since the English weren't in a hurry to expand in that direction. I had units waiting to block the passage if they got too close, but they never bothered which I though was kinda weird.

The English did drop a couple of towns on "my" part of the continent with Galleys, but they were on the crap land and on the outer edge of my useful territory anyway so it didn't bother me too much. But I did make sure my garrisons were healthy to prevent culture flips.

Mountain Sage · March 1, 2004, 07:20

Demigod, eh?
I'll give it a try, asa I finish a certain Mayan game on Emperor (just to remember the feeling of winning...

)

lethe · March 1, 2004, 11:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Demigod, eh?
I'll give it a try, asa I finish a certain Mayan game on Emperor (just to remember the feeling of winning...

)

I'm taking it slow, but I am not too optimistic about this game.

Archipelago isn't easy on demi and up. As the AI is still inept at launching invasions they all end up with horrible numbers of defensive troops.

I've not had the good fortune yet in this game, but in a previous game I went from no WW to anarchy in a single turn after landing a massive force on the beaches of a backward AI. "Yeah, I can manage WW while in democracy." Famous last words. The infantry armies soaked up the hits nice and good, but that didn't placate the masses at home.

DrSpike · March 1, 2004, 12:48

Are you playing the demi2.sav game?

Aqualung71 · March 1, 2004, 23:45

I'm playing the demigod.sav game (the original start position) as I downloaded it before the second start was posted. I believe Lethe is playing demi2.sav - the amended start.

My game looks to be continents (or else there are 2 mothers of islands!), while the second start is archipelago.

Take your pick!

Aqualung71 · March 1, 2004, 23:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Demigod, eh?
I'll give it a try, asa I finish a certain Mayan game on Emperor (just to remember the feeling of winning...

)

Yeh, I took a break from this one last night and went back to William on your Emperor thread. It gave me some self-esteem back!

Aqualung71 · March 4, 2004, 04:10

Back to the Demigod challenge!

Played up until 1495AD. Highlight and lowlights were:

I brought forward the invasion of the Greek lands as there was a nasty Mayan Infantryman too close to the city I wanted (meaning, needed), and they were at war with Greece. Although the second Japanese Cavalry Army had not yet landed, the attack was launched with the first Cavalry Army and 17 Vet Cav's as backup. It was a non-event: The first vital city fell to the Army, which was a stroke of luck since the 17 Cav would have spent another turn getting through the Forest. So instead they turned their eyes towards an adjacent town and captured that. Meanwhile, the Mayan's had already captured one of the resource towns I wanted, so I would have to live with that. 4 more Greek towns were captured, netting a total of 2 iron, 1 coal, 1 saltpeter, 1 horse, 2 dyes and 2 wine (after culture expansions). Not a bad few year's work! Rushed a few settlers and have now got about 8 towns in the former Greek territory, making sure they span from one side of the continent to the other and thus frustrate the Mayan attempt to connect up to their already huge homeland. Made peace with the Greeks, eyeing their remaining 4 cities that contain one more dye. "So what?", you may say....but resouce trading has kept me alive in this game!

Managed to stay a pretty constant ~4 techs behind the leaders throughout the Industrial Age. Am just about to research Motorised Transportation, but Babylon and Russia (and maybe Spain) are still a couple ahead of me. Strangely Maya are on par with me, though miles ahead of everyone on the "scoreboard". Thought I had jagged Hoovers, as all AI's went along the Refining/Steel/Combustion branch, but that pesky Mayan KAI beat me to it by 3 turns! Then again, 30 turns earlier I didn't rate it a chance anyway.

No Oil!!! Well, I can rant and rave again but frankly it's hardly surprising given I've got about 5 tiles of tundra in my entire empire. Anyway, the English are happy to keep giving it to me every 20 turns in exchange for a tech, so I won't grumble too much. And I guess you don't hear me complaining that I lucked out on Rubber and got 2 on my homeland

Hmmm, something must be wrong when you start to feel embarrassed about getting a resource within your borders

At one point while I was waiting for the captured town borders to expand I found myself without Iron as my deal with Lizzie had expired and I wasn't keen on paying 200gpt for it again.....so my workers sat around on their shovels for about 5 turns (yep, at about 50g cost per turn!). Anyway, RR's and terra-forming are now mostly done, so it's almost time for the "pop-add remaining workers for the research boost"....although it'll be hard to find space for them in my cramped empire.

How to win? I'm at the point where with Tanks I can build my military and try to take out Maya completely - especially now I've beefed up the capital Kyoto to a size 17 mega-city and it has started churning out Armies. Maya is annoyed with me, which isn't surprising so I'll have to bring some Infantry defenders over just in case they get uppity and invade me. But it's the Russians and Babylonians who are threatening the SS victory - and any IC invasion to curb their research would take some logistics and time - I switched into Democracy some time back and I'm naturally very wary of starting a serious war. They are annoyingly 2 or 3 techs ahead of me at the end of the Industrial ages, so I'm a bit worried. I'd better start thinking about the UN build too.

Hmmm...what to do?

Note to ducki: I disbanded my worker camp. Yay!!!!

(ummm...I looked at the city screen and found that EVERY tile was taken by another city, so I guess it was a bit of a no-brainer. Still, there's a first time for everything)

DrSpike · March 4, 2004, 06:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Thriller
Note to ducki: I disbanded my worker camp. Yay!!!!

(ummm...I looked at the city screen and found that EVERY tile was taken by another city, so I guess it was a bit of a no-brainer. Still, there's a first time for everything)

So you tried it as we discussed in AU501? What did you think?

vmxa1 · March 4, 2004, 18:34

Thriller how about a screenie? No tundra, what about desert tiles?

Now that I think about it we have oil wells all over southern cal. Some on hills, some on beach, even out in the ocean.