Power of Feudalism

pvzh · February 27, 2004, 17:57

Reading the debate about Feudalism in AU forum I realized that it could be very benefitial if we will play a game on that goverment and see how good/bad it is. Because we all will be playing the same game it will be somewhat easier to discuss things.

Feudalism is pop-rushing government that needs to be won early (before industrial) otherwise you will be outproduced when factories/power plants start to roll. Thus, agricultural nation without great offensive UU should work on pangea, standard size.

Here is starting location

pvzh · February 27, 2004, 18:02

Again

alexman · February 27, 2004, 18:09

Wow, that's a pretty nice starting location. I bet you could even prove the power of Despotism with this start!

(just kidding)

pvzh · February 27, 2004, 18:12

Hmm... Need to figure out how to make it in the post itself.

Now two scenarios
Standard (v1.15) and AU Mod 1.03 (research choices of AI are reworked)

As I mensioned before it is pangea, standard size, everything is average, playable civs: Aztecs, Netherlands, Incas, and Maya.

Feudalism

Zip file contains both versions

I plan to post some results on the week-end because I am like half-way through as Aztecs.

Rhothaerill · February 27, 2004, 19:01

This looks like an interesting challenge. I don't know if I'll be able to get to it very soon, but since I've never explored Feudalism as a government it's something to try.

However I have a question...as part of the concept do we stay in Feudalism the entire game once we get it?

Krill · February 27, 2004, 19:23

Quote:

as part of the concept do we stay in Feudalism the entire game once we get it?

Isn't that called suicide? It was not designed for late game use, both Facism and commie are better on every account, aren't they?

Rhothaerill · February 27, 2004, 19:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Krill

Isn't that called suicide? It was not designed for late game use, both Facism and commie are better on every account, aren't they?

That's why I want to know.

Though I'd go the democracy route personally.

Krill · February 27, 2004, 19:40

If a normal game allows you to swap to another government, then this example is flawed because you have to stay in feudalism for the whole game, since it will not represent a normal game.

vmxa1 · February 27, 2004, 19:53

I do not see anything at the link for the zip file?

Krill · February 27, 2004, 20:06

vmxa1, what do you mean? Are you not able to download it?

vmxa1 · February 27, 2004, 20:30

Must have been a glitch. It is there now.

Krill · February 27, 2004, 20:32

Just a quick reply. That start is just way too fast with a Agri civ. I can't think of a way to slow it down.

ducki · February 27, 2004, 22:20

Why would you want to slow it down?
To make the most of Feudalism, you're going to want a buttload of size 6 towns.

If you're desperate for slower-ness (er..heh) mine one or two of those plains. Mining the hill would be nice, but takes for-ever.

Wheee! A new game! Thanks, man!

ducki · February 28, 2004, 01:25

Ok, wow, that is really insane. My bad.
Still, I'd much rather have lots of food than shields for squeezing out settlers. This is a tough game and I'm not even out of the ANcient age. And on Monarch. I think I must have gotten lazy or something.

Theseus will be happy to know I've had 2 wars with 3 opponents already and got an Army.

Gee, Monarchy or Republic?

Krill · February 28, 2004, 08:22

I would like food, just not 10 per turn (it is possible with this start).
Another problem is that in feudalism, towns should not be next fresh water. But all the platable civs are agri, so they should be next to fresh water. This means that one of the traits is a hinderance. (All of this is IMHO).

lethe · February 28, 2004, 09:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Krill
I would like food, just not 10 per turn (it is possible with this start).
Another problem is that in feudalism, towns should not be next fresh water. But all the platable civs are agri, so they should be next to fresh water. This means that one of the traits is a hinderance. (All of this is IMHO).

So, by turning a citizen into a specialist you can 'freeze' them at size 6. Sure, you lose a shield or two, but it's no big deal.

And once you switch to Feudalism it doesn't matter if you are next to water or not as an agri civ, you get 3 food in the center square regardless once out of despotism.

Hint: I split the wheats between two towns.

lethe · February 28, 2004, 12:32

Aztecs, emperor difficulty.

Settle on the spot. Hut hands over Ceremonial Burial. I start work on a worker. Research goal is philosophy.

3700: Worker complete. Start on a granary.
3450: Contact with Carthage. I pay Ceremonial Burial, Warrior Code and Pottery for Alphabet, Masonry and 10g.
2900: Granary complete. 4-turn settler pump up and running. (Granary completed at half full box at pop 4. Perfect.)
2750: Contact with America. Sell them Alphabet for Bronze Working and 7g.
2630: Founded Teotihuacan. Notice the exceedingly close city spacing.
2510: Founded Tlatelolco. They will build a few jag warriors for scouting. I won't mention all cities founded from now on. Suffice to say that a new settler is leaving the capital every 4 turns. Most cities will build a barracks and then start to work on troops.
1990: We find out that we are in the lead in size.
1675: Discover Philosophy first. Take Code of Laws as free tech. Sell writing to Carthage for Iron Working. Sell Writing to America for Mysticism and 13g. Code of Laws to Carthage for The Wheel.
1525: Meet Persia. We sell them Code of Laws for Horseback Riding and 12g. Meet Iroquis. Sell them Code of Laws for 13g and Mathematics.
1425: We meet Babylon and give them Philosophy for Map Making. For Map Making we buy Polytheism from Carthage. We also meet India. But they are 5 techs down and have no cash.
1300: We meet China. They are 5 techs down.
775: We make it into the Middle Ages. Feudalism in 24. China is 5 techs down, India is 1 tech down. Everyone else also made it into the Middle Ages this round. Most of them have Monarchy, so technically they are all 1 tech up on me. I'm building the Great Wall.
450: We build The Statue of Zeus
350: We start a Revolution! 18 Swordsmen and 5 Medieval Infantry march on the wicked Americans.
190: Feudalism is now the official government of the Aztec empire. We've captured Boston, Washington and New York from the Americans. New York has been captured two times, and culture flipped two times. Currently our troops are just outside town.
90: War with America ceased due to WW. All in all we captured 5 cities, with The Oracle as the only noteworthy thing in them. Moving troops into position for a war against Carthage over the coming rounds, also building bunches of trebuches for that war, unlike the American spearmen the Carthages actually have decent defensive troops. Also going to cause a Golden Age in the Carthage war. With my ICS spacing there should be room for an additional 9 cities in the ex-American territories. Once I get a MGL I'll rush in the FP somewhere.

Long term plan is to get to Military Tradition. I totally ignore the upper side of the tech tree. Getting MT without getting Chivalry will allow the old goldie, building Horsemen and upgrading them to Cavalry. I don't think I will enter the Industrial Age at all, except if I get the techs for peace. (Well, I'll get Steam Power for sure. But other than that, no.)

ICS spacing for life! This will get incrementally better as I capture wonders with continent wide effects. Goal is a decently early conquest or domination victory. And yes, I do realize that most towns will be nearly worthless, so I'll go heavy on the irrigation and use copious amounts of tax men, which will fund the cavalry.

Theseus · February 28, 2004, 18:02

Looks like fun... I'm prolly going to try Desp > Feud > Fasc/Commie, just for the heckuvit.

Go get'em, ducki!!

Theseus · February 28, 2004, 18:09

Quote:

Originally posted by lethe
ICS spacing for life! This will get incrementally better as I capture wonders with continent wide effects. Goal is a decently early conquest or domination victory. And yes, I do realize that most towns will be nearly worthless, so I'll go heavy on the irrigation and use copious amounts of tax men, which will fund the cavalry.

That's the plan...

lethe · February 28, 2004, 22:40

On second thought I won't ever leave the Middle Ages. I can't go past Monotheism on the upper branch. (Got the Oracle already, and Temple of Artemis is built quite close to home. Those two are incredible in combination for these kind of games. Especially as they allow us to work all tiles earlier even at full WW.)

alexman · February 28, 2004, 23:39

Quote:

Originally posted by pvzh
AU Mod 1.03 (research choices of AI are reworked)

The version of the AU mod for this game seems to be 1.02, which is without the AI research choice modifications. No big deal.

ducki · February 29, 2004, 02:22

Quote:

And yes, I do realize that most towns will be nearly worthless, so I'll go heavy on the irrigation and use copious amounts of tax men, which will fund the cavalry.

5 freely supported units isn't quite worthless.

I'm having a blast with this. Got a rather early MGL, built an army, got another MGL, rushed the Epic, did some building, racing to Monarchy to try to snag HG, then as fast as possible while making money to Feudalism. Monopolized the Ivory, too.

I probably should have played Emperor, this just feels like a too easy start - even with my GA coming when I had 4 towns.

I almost switched to Monarchy as soon as it came up - anyone else have the urge to do that, to get out of the tile penalty? I argued with myself for 10 minutes even after remembering the new Aztecs are not religious.

Anyway, this is a fun one. It feels so odd to found as many towns as possible one tile away from rivers. *shudder

lethe · February 29, 2004, 11:51

Ducki: You should have played Demi-god.

I think it would have been doable. Emperor feels pretty easy too, and I don't think I am even as good a player as you.

Oh well, more reports from the Eastern Front:

270: War against the Carthaginians started. Babylon holds two out of four 'essential' wonders. They have Pyramids and Sun Tzu's. Carthage has The Hanging Gardens and the Iroquis have the Temple of Artemis.
400: First war with Carthage is over. They have 2 cities left, took peace as I had to consolidate forces. One flip, but otherwise perfect. Triggered a Golden Age early on in this war. Got two leaders, so built a Med Inf army, and second leader rushed in Heroic Epic. Coming wars should see plenty of leaders. Militaristic+HE is nice. Hoping to get to Pentagon size in the next war. Going to mop up Carthage, leave America for later and go beat the snot out of Iroquis. They have Leonardo's Workshop and Temple of Artemis, both very, very critical wonders to this strategy.

Considering the tight starting spot I do think Feudalism and ICS was actually the best choice. Stacking in cities close, close together allowed for a very fast start. I'd probably have been Ralphing if it was a "normal" game though, so I could disband into an OCP pattern and go Commie. But this game will be over before Communism.

lethe · February 29, 2004, 15:33

Beat up the last Carthaginians and Americans. Grabbed Temple of Artemis+Leonardos from Iroquis, reached Military Tradition. Got two slowmover stacks with cannon support, and one fast-moving stack this far. Finally got enough armies to start work on the pentagon, so the next leader will rush it, leader after that will rush Military Academy.

I build 5-6 horsemen per round, but I can only pay for upgrading 4/round. So the rest get relegated to military police duties in core cities, while the musketmen are migrating with the front. Eventually I'll be able to pay for more cavalry/round than I build horsemen, then it's time to grab the backlog.

Or rather, I would if I could be bothered to continue.

There are just too many units out, too long borders, and too many workers.

This is why I don't even ICS in SMAC or Civ 2. I go mad from all these little cities and all these units. (Especially as I still only have 5 luxuries, so specialists needs to be re-arranged due to WW or lack thereof every now and then.)

Feudalism _can_ help out in a cramped starting position, but I am not at all convinced that it would beat monarchy.

I think monarchy->communism while Ralphing cities is significantly better, even with this starting position.

Ps. Babylon was well on their path to becoming a KAI, and would probably have reached Replaceable Parts by the time I reached them. (They are the farthest civ.) Taking down infantry with cannons and cavalry would be a chore.

ducki · February 29, 2004, 16:55

Server ate version one of this, so here's version 2.

Quote:

Originally posted by lethe
I think monarchy->communism while Ralphing cities is significantly better, even with this starting position.

I would say it would be better, especially with this starting position.
With all that food and bonus and an Agricultural civ getting 2-1-1 from the deserts even in Despotism when roaded and irrigated and all those hills and mountain and I'd much rather grow to size 12+.

I think feudalism is especially strong with lower food, little-no water - this site screams out metros to me. Then again, I could be wrong.

ducki · February 29, 2004, 22:55

Went with Monarch level this time - I don't feel like working as hard this time.

Aztecs to mess with the Jaggie as well.

Looks like there's a coast 4-4 from the start point...
Move the worker to the Wheat to see what else is around. There's more plains to the NW it looks like, and from the minimap placement, I probably want to expand that way anyways, so move the settler across the river to save on movement costs down the road and I should be able to 3-space another town or two around the capitol on the coast - I've come to hate off-center capitols.

Besides, I'll still have access to the Sugar in 10 turns when the borders bump.

Haha! The hut gives me Ceremonial Burial! Whee!
Start building a worker.
Research Mysticism @100% - 36turns.
Worker begins roading the FP Wheat.

When pop hits two, double check production - Jaggie is down to 5 turns, so switch to that.

Worker finishes Irrigating and Roading the Wheat, now for the riverside plain, then the two Sugars.

3500BC - first Jaggie complete, begin another, send 1st exploring, must adjust sliders, Mysticism in 16.

IBT - Borders expand and an American scout pops into view.
He won't trade me Masonry, so I sell him CB for 10g.
Tenoch. will now grow sooner than planned due to the Sugars being in reach - switch to a warrior for MP, planning to follow that with a settler or granary or worker - not sure what.

3400BC - Oooh! Ivory!!!
3300BC - Warrior garrison complete, start Jaggie to be followed by Settler then granary.

Dear good, there's wheat everywhere! I'm not about to set up that many pumps, but talk about growth potential!!!

3200BC - Meet Carthage. Trade Pottery and Warrior Code for Masonry and 30gold. Wish I could get Alphabet, but maybe with Mysticism in a few turns.

3100BC - Jaggie2 complete, start settler - complete a full turn after growth. Grr.
Double Grr. Abe beat me to Mystic by 2 turns. Bastige.
CB and all 57g to Carthage for Bronze. I sure hope he will sell Alphabet for Mysticism. Grr, he won't. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Argh, disease. Blah.
Gah, two turns in a row! Ack!

Settler complete, but now leaves 2 pop instead of 4. Grr. Head to coast next to fish. Send Jag2 exploring to the SE.

Tenoch. complete another garrison, start Settler2 at only pop3. Grr, I must have turned my brain to mush after AU501 - what the heck am I thinking?

2630BC - Meet India - trade Mystic for Alphabet and 60g. Exploration pays.

2470BC - Meet China. Only has 21g. Alphabet or Mystic? I'll wait a turn, see if he has any income.
Uh-oh, barbs south of me. Hmm...

Barracks done in Teot. Start Jaggie, then Curragh

2310BC - Meet Babylon. Boy, howdy, is he backwards or what?
Build Tlateloco 9-9-9 from capitol - for feudalism, riverside is a pain to manage and there's too few shields riverside. This way I have two plains before any cultural border expansion. Build worker. Finally. Jeeze, I feel like such a newb tonight.

2270BC - Pottery and Alphabet to Babylon for Iron, which America and Carthage already have, plus those two have the wheel. Grr.
Iron to India for the Wheel.
Alphabet to China for 20 gold, putting me over 100g, so maybe....
Yes! 105g to Carthage for a worker. Yay!

2070BC - Contact Iroquois - that's it, right? Standard map, 8 civs? I hope so.
Masonry to Iro for 60g
Wheel to Hammie for 20g. I know, but someone's gonna sell it to him.

1950BC - Abe demands20% of my treasury. Get stuffed, Abe. He declares war. I guess this will be a sorry GA.

1700BC - Golden Age begins with a (not so) grand total of 4 towns.
1650BC - Ah, Persia. The long lost Civ. They have Writing, but want all my swordsman upgrade money for it as well as two techs. I think not.
I talk them down to Pottery, Wheel, Iron, Mystic + 160g for Writing, leaving me a bit for a few Swordsmen. And now I can call "Dogpile on da wabbit!"

Writing to Carthage for an Alliance vs America. Maybe I can burn their GA. (I can dream, eh?)

Lots of stuff. War. Mayhem. MGL(Army).
1050BC - Iro demand money. Piffle. Come and get it, O Mounted One.

Actually, I had a crash or my son decided to bang the keyboard or something. Anyway, I had to go backwards quite a few turns and it turns out I did something different and Iroquois didn't demand money so I didn't get to have a second war - yet. I got to interested in actually waging war and forgot to keep notes on it.

I did get a second leader vs. America and he rushed the Epic. I set up a horseman blockade because I got builderly trying to push back with cultural buildings and I build the Hanging Gardens in the capitol. I'm building the Statue of Zeus in my coastal city(unless I can beat the cascade and take Colossus first) - I seem to have an Ivory monopoly and noone's getting any in trade until I've build the SoZ.

Currently I have Feudalism but was 1 turn away from 1 settler, 2 from another, and 3 from a Marketplace in the capitol, so I'm postponing the revolution to try to cover the land on the fat peninsula where the Ivory is, so I can free up those units that are blockading. Besides, galleys will be sent by the AIs there soon, since I sent their settlers home.

The early GA (4 towns) was actually really well timed - or I was able to utilize it well - for churning out swordsmen(vets) that led to my two leaders. The Jaggie was good for tricking the AI into not actually invading but standing paralyzed.
Plus, I can upgrade them to MedInf now, though they'll likely be MPs unless I really need the units, which is doubtful.

More later.

ducki · March 1, 2004, 01:10

320 AD - researching Invention very slowly - have been since before the revolution.
I am having trouble building up enough troops to push on the free support border, but I'm getting closer, bit by bit.

Prepping to squash Abe like a doodlebug - Trebs, Med.Inf., a few Pikes. The horses are mostly rear-guard, holding down the fort at home, in case of an actual (*gasp) AI invasion.

Completed SoZ on the coast so now I can use the Ivories for Alliance-bait, probably Ghandi, maybe Mao as well. Or Babylon. Although Xerxes could sure use slowing down, I'm not sure I want him having his GA during the sweet spot.

I don't really care about Sun Tzu's - even corrupt towns can build a barracks in 20 turns or something fast like that - if I plan to switch to Demo/Monarchy, though, the happies would be nice.

Anyway, it sure is nice to get out of Despotism and with a focus on war, buying/extorting tech, and small towns, the forced labor sure is nice, especially since I don't get a trade bonus to split between upgrades and rushed temples/libraries, etc.

I still think I'd rather have Monarchy or Republic on a map with this much food and this many luxuries so easy to get. As short as I plan to keep my wars, I don't think any gov is going to have WW problems, but we'll see.

Here's the world as I know it.
P.S. Theseus, do my build orders look like a completely different player from "Ducki Does Regent" or what? Ah, memories.

vmxa1 · March 1, 2004, 01:22

ducki what is that red spot? An invader of a scouting uit?

ducki · March 1, 2004, 10:37

That's a settler-spearman pair that Babylon sent by galley because I claimed that land too slowly. Good thing I waited on my revolution to finish those settlers, eh? I'm still going to have to move my mountain blockades to eat up space that hasn't been culture-linked, but at least I got enough land I don't know if they'll settle of just wander home.

I'd give just about anything to be in Monarchy and to have settled different spots.

In fact, I think I'll replay this one with a plan to Monarchy.

I don't think any manner of tweaking to Feudalism can make it more used. More useful, sure, but not more used.

I've decided the problem is that it is too different in requirements to the other two Ancient govts.

1) Monarchy and Republic both benefit from larger cities, leaving the player more flexibility in deciding which to revolt to when the time comes. Feudalism needs to be planned on from the beginning, yet comes later than the other two. If you decide on Feudalism, settle a bunch of towns, then change your mind, you probably have to build a bunch of aqueducts, eating time and shields. If you decide on Republic then change your mind for whatever reason, Monarchy is easy to adjust to.

2) Corruption - to have similar income to the other two, you need a lot more towns which pushes you up against the OCN.

3) Production - this one's personal, but I just prefer to have Cities instead of Towns to produce units and improvements faster as opposed to the ICS standard of more troops at a steadier pace. That's just personal, but I like bigger Cities because they produce improvements faster. I need to practice Ralphing because I don't have the hang of it yet.

Short of Moving Feudalism to the Monarchy tech, I can no longer see myself using it for anything other than dry, low food terrain with little or no water. It just requires too much focus and lock-in for my tastes.

lethe · March 1, 2004, 11:18

Yeah, a more 'proper' Feudalism start would be Cold, Dry, 3 Billion. (Or hot, but in hot Agricultural takes on an entirely new meaning of overpowered.)

I think Feudalism fits the kind of start that I just go ctrl-shift-w when I see.