Don't Come to Hangzhou!!!

[Hurricane]

I have a good friend who spent a year in China as an exchange student, and some of her experiences were a bit worrying. The exchange students lived at the same dorm, and there were some Africans in the group, too. This one time they all went out to spend the evening at a bar, followed by the allways present "tutor" (party informer would be a more correct term). At around ten in the evening he told the Africans that they should head home, since they probably soon would get into trouble otherwise.

Another time a Jordanian student got very ill, and several times went to a doctor to get a diagnose and treatment. They gave some aspirin and stuff, and a few days later he died. Death reason, according to the doctors, "Study stress".

[Nubclear]

At least Utah provides a nice, safe place to raise children.

In Japan, you pay $$,$$$,$$$ to live in a sprawling city of Asian mafia and prostitute rings, where Earthquakes are routine, which borders two politically unstable neighbors (and 3 neighbors which would like nothing more than to see Japan ripped to shreds), not to mention all the strange things that come out of Japan.

Utah
Japan

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Japan is uberevilimperialist though.

With what military? The Japan of today is very different than the Japan of the 1940s.

China is a modernizing nation with a great culture, a long and fresh history, and a great modern day nation

Please describe how China is a great modernizing modern nation. I just want to hear your opinions.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Hurricane
I have a good friend who spent a year in China as an exchange student, and some of her experiences were a bit worrying. The exchange students lived at the same dorm, and there were some Africans in the group, too. This one time they all went out to spend the evening at a bar, followed by the allways present "tutor" (party informer would be a more correct term). At around ten in the evening he told the Africans that they should head home, since they probably soon would get into trouble otherwise.

Another time a Jordanian student got very ill, and several times went to a doctor to get a diagnose and treatment. They gave some aspirin and stuff, and a few days later he died. Death reason, according to the doctors, "Study stress".

Africans have it tough in China. Oddly, African-Americans don't suffer as much.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by DaShi


With what military? The Japan of today is very different than the Japan of the 1940s.

Yet it still doesn't recognize the atrocities it commited against Asia?
Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

Please describe how China is a great modernizing modern nation. I just want to hear your opinions.

I am economically speaking, of course.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


Yet it still doesn't recognize the atrocities it commited against Asia?
Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

As I said before, this is a shame of Japan. But it seems to be common in Asia. Look back at some of the Tiananmen Square threads.

I am economically speaking, of course.

So you like countries that are economically growing, and don't like those that aren't?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by DaShi


As I said before, this is a shame of Japan. But it seems to be common in Asia. Look back at some of the Tiananmen Square threads.

Difference:
Japan is a modern western society.
China isn't

So you like countries that are economically growing, and don't like those that aren't?

That's not what I said.
I like China because it'll soon become a counterbalance to the US, while Japan cannot.

[DaShi]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


Difference:
Japan is a modern western society.
China isn't
[quote]

Japan wasn't modern then. China claims to be modern, but I don't see them issuing any apologies. Hell, America is the ****ing definition of a modern western society, but it has done quite a few things that it hasn't apologized for.

Also, I don't believe that just because a country isn't modern or is developing is an excuse for bad behavior. Neither is the old "America does this, so China isn't guilty" excuse that some posters like to substitute for logical reasoning.

That's not what I said.
I like China because it'll soon become a counterbalance to the US, while Japan cannot.

If Japan turned around it's economy and strengthen its military, then you would feel different about it?

[Nubclear]

No, because China has more potential.
Perhaps when Japan admits its mistakes, I'll be more apt to liking it.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
No, because China has more potential.

And it doesn't bother you than China is using America as its model in its rise to power.

Perhaps when Japan admits its mistakes, I'll be more apt to liking it.

What about China's mistakes?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by DaShi


And it doesn't bother you than China is using America as its model in its rise to power.

How do you mean?

What about China's mistakes?

Japan, being a more "modern" nation, has higher expectations in my book.

[Mr. Harley]

UR, I actually gained that from extensive historical reading, though not focused on Asia per se. However, I know enough to seperate the Five Kingdoms (Wudai dynasty) versus the modern period from 1907-1960, for which the term is not universally accepted. Plus reading various sources concerning Confucism and Toaism. The western concept of justice does not at all resemble what has been the norm in China and Japan, the only two coutries in that region whose HISTORICAL judicial system I have read about.

Of course you also have the reporting in the media concerning Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam, Burma, Camboida, India, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Sri Lanka. Please note I am talking a consistancy of reporting over the course of two decades in multiple sources ranging from the BBC and the Wall Street Journal to the New York Times.

I may have missed a few countries, but I think that I have a broad enough spectrum to make a couple of observations here. First, the legal systems in those countries is much more about social stability than justice. As what we call corruption is considered normal behavior, and is considered the proper system to reward those who support you in power. Substitute "order and stability" for corruption and you will start to understand where there is a collision of paradigms.

Their system of justice works fairly well for what had been desired. Of course that kind of system stifles innovation and foreign investment, and both with the advent of democracy, guided democracy (UR you do recognize who I am quoting and the appropriateness - if you don't look up some of Putin's recent speaches, it is a very appropriate model fro what exists in say Singapore), and Totalitarian states they are trying something different. The old oligarchal systems consisting of nobility have been swept away, and even the Totalitarian states have been exposed at least to some degree to Marx, who in his defense did push industrialization. Those countries exposed to western democratic concepts are more open to innovation, but are still trying to maintain stability in the wake of rapid change, to a degree the United States hasn't seen for such a very long time, actually it's ancient history - it's called the civil rights movement, and look at how the state courts in the south dealt with that change.

The Chinese system of extra-legal justice, read here their history of "societies" (I wish I was good with languages but it's one academic area I'm really bad at) has a rich a varied historical record, and "organized crime" is a poor fit, as instead they are fullfilling a need in their society where the legal system left a void. Unfortunately as it attempts to translate itself into the modern world, it essentially becomes a type of organized crime. Please note I am NOT stating that the "society" system was not engaged in criminal activities during it's historical heyday. It's just that there was much more to them than that.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


How do you mean?

China is embracing an American style of capitalism. China also hopes to expand its military the same way that America has. They even sent a man into space, because they believed that it is an action of a modern nation because America did it. China wants to and has expanded it territory using its military strength since the founding of the Communist party, much like American imperialism (except America doesn't actually claim the land as part of America). China is also allowing its economy to grow at the expense of the environment and the working class. To beleive that they will alter this when they fully modernize is as foolish as believing that America will embrace socialism once Bush is no longer president.

Japan, being a more "modern" nation, has higher expectations in my book.

See above. So when China becomes modern and they don't apologize, you will dislike them and make anti-Chinese statements whenever you can?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by DaShi


China is embracing an American style of capitalism. China also hopes to expand its military the same way that America has. They even sent a man into space, because they believed that it is an action of a modern nation because America did it. China wants to and has expanded it territory using its military strength since the founding of the Communist party, much like American imperialism (except America doesn't actually claim the land as part of America). China is also allowing its economy to grow at the expense of the environment and the working class. To beleive that they will alter this when they fully modernize is as foolish as believing that America will embrace socialism once Bush is no longer president.

-Capitalism: Once China reaches a sufficent level of development, I am hopeful they will attempt to socialize their economy.
-Military: Yes, you need a strong military to be a superpower
-Economy, Environment, Working Class: Such is required to industrialize. Once they have, however, they will probably be much more democratic and begin granting more rights to the workers.
-Mobilization: True. But I'm (perhaps foolishly) optimistic.

See above. So when China becomes modern and they don't apologize, you will dislike them and make anti-Chinese statements whenever you can?

Yes.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


-Capitalism: Once China reaches a sufficent level of development, I am hopeful they will attempt to socialize their economy.
-Military: Yes, you need a strong military to be a superpower
-Economy, Environment, Working Class: Such is required to industrialize. Once they have, however, they will probably be much more democratic and begin granting more rights to the workers.
-Mobilization: True. But I'm (perhaps foolishly) optimistic.

What about imperialism, will they magically become enlightened and let the Tibetans open up casinos?

[Nubclear]

No.
Any superpower that is a superpower will be imperialist. That is a given.
However America, being the sole superpower, has become both too powerful, too arrogant, and too stupid.
It needs a counterbalance to keep it in its place. China is perfect.

[DaShi]

Another arrogant, powerful, and stupid superpower?

Oh well, I still don't see the point of hating Japan. Although, I don't really see the point of hating anyone.

[Nubclear]

Surely you know I don't hate Japan
I'm just deeply disappointed that it still hasn't recognized it's history.

For the record, I'm also deeply disappointed that Russia hasn't recognized many of its atrocities.

[DaShi]

But Russia is developing.

[Nubclear]

But I hold it to higher standards.

[DaShi]

[Az]

They're white, and all.

[Drake Tungsten]

This is a bit off-topic, but I've come around on the Japanese "whitewashing" of textbooks issue. I used to condemn them for only providing cursory information on the Nanjing Massacre and other atrocities in China. Now that I actually have Japanese history textbooks at arms length, however, I can't really get too upset about the brief coverage of the IJA's actions in China. Everything in the textbooks gets little to no explanation; it's essentially a picture book with some history related captions. I'd be surprised if Japanese students knew anything about history after studying from these books, let alone knowing detailed information about the horrible actions of their country's army in WWII.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by DaShi
This is what he did. He liked a song so he went up to a girl he thought worked there and asked her to turn up the music. She said that she didn't work there and to talk to the bartender. Just as he turned to speak with the bartender, a beer bottle hit the girl and she screamed. Then her boyfriend, who threw the bottle, jumped my friend and started pounding on him. When my friend realized that he was going to stop, he began to fight back to defend himself. At this time, the Chinese who worked in the bar started attacking my friend while another friend and I tried to hold everyone we could back. Finally, we got our friend back to his seat. The attacker ran in the kitchen and came out with a cleaver. My other friend told my friend to run, which he did.

I knew something smelled fishy about this story. The idea of asking someone at a Chinese bar or restaurant to turn up the music is simply inconceivable.



Seriously, you otta be careful out there in there the countryside. Maybe you should think about a big(ger) city next time? Shanghai is like living in a kindergarten class, crime-wise. Be careful, laowei! Xiao xin!

[Pekka]

Dashi, sorry this happened to you and your friends. That's always bad and gives traumas. If it was me who was asked for an advice, I'd tell him to leave. What's the point of staying if you have to be scared anyway. After the encounter with the police, I'd say it's better just to give up and leave.

I'm glad he survived though, it could have been worse.
You never know, I usually avoid local bars in here too. Going to a smaller place, that is not a big city, it's better to go to a bar that is bigger and has people outside that place too than a clearly local bar. You can get looks from jerks and they start aggressing, so better just stay away.

[DanS]

This is a bit off-topic, but I've come around on the Japanese "whitewashing" of textbooks issue. I used to condemn them for only providing cursory information on the Najing Massacre and other atrocities in China. Now that I actually have Japanese history textbooks at arms length, however, I can't really get too upset about the brief coverage of the IJA's actions in China. Everything in the textbooks gets little to no explanation; it's essentially a picture book with some history related captions. I'd be surprised if Japanese students knew anything about history after studying from these books, let alone knowing detailed information about the horrible actions of their country's army in WWII.

Tokyo Rose!

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Tass, no joke.

I'm genuinely surprised, given that China has been civilized for roughly 5,000 years.

Chinese don't exactly have a reputation as gang-bangers.

Being oldest civilization or for 5,000 years doesn't mean anything. Civilizations can and do decay. Longevity of a civilization doesn't have anything to do on how enlightened they are.

In fact, the Chinese culture contributed to their own impaired civilization development.

Look at the Arabs, there was a time when Arabs were the most advanced people during the European Dark Ages. And what are they today? Can't even build a proper toilet.

[Drake Tungsten]

Tokyo Rose!

I hate Tokyo with a passion. Kanto ****s...

[:) Smiley]

Having read through the whole thread, I'm quite sure you could retitle it "Dont come to Texas" and the story would still make sense.

[Tingkai]

So much ignorance.