Testing the Jaguar Warrior

[nbarclay]

In case anyone else wants to give it a try (at least far enough to see how the Jaguar Warrior works out), I'm posting a test game I started to see how good a use I could make of Jaguar Warriors. It's on a standard map with eight civs, Emperor level, and using the standard rules rather than the AU Mod. The challenge: how much value can you get out of your Jaguar warriors, and at what cost to your REXing? I'll be interested to see whether, if several people try this, the Jaguar Warrior works consistently well or whether some players end up having their attempt to use their Jags backfire. Note that we've had some discussion regarding how to get the most out of Jags in the thread on that unit, and I'm sure there's been a good bit of other discussion (albeit at least mostly based on the earlier 10-shield version) elsewhere on Apolyton.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

I just realized the attachment didn't attach correctly. Oops.

[ducki]

- I checked all 3 likely forums before going back to pvzh's game. I'll take a look at this one "soon".

[Dominae]

Nathan, maybe we should make this the next AU course? The theme would be "The Power of the Early/Despotic GA" or something like that. Using the Aztecs would be a natural choice, and would shed some light on our recent debate.


Dominae

[ducki]

Does that mean we're ready for the next course?

[Dominae]

I'm not really sure. I'm just saying that this is too good a topic for a course not to make it official.


Dominae

[ducki]

I definitely agree with that. So is Feudalism and/or 2+ gov switches, though not all once, hehe.

[lethe]

Is a despotic GA worth it on a map bigger than small? I can see a value in it if you are going for an extreme early conquest, and got a good Ancient UU. (Can we say Iroquis?)

Maybe I am missing something though. Or my die hard habit of taking a GA either at the start of Middle Ages or the Industrial Age just after Hoover is built.

[Dominae]

The point of the course would be to answer that very question, lethe.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

With the Jaguar Warrior no longer an effective combat unit in C3C, I see no reason to view the Aztecs as a natural choice for deliberately triggering an early GA. In my game, I did some early raiding with Jags without triggering my GA, then spent quite a while building up my forces, and then did my fighting with catapult/swordsmen stacks using largely swordsmen upgraded from warriors and Jags. (At some production levels, building Jags for upgrade makes more sense than building warriors.) I took out almost all of America shortly before I switched to Republic, but didn't trigger my GA until I was ready to fight the Iroquois after the switch. An Iroquois archer was escorting a settler through my territory, and pinging the archer down to one hit point with cats gave my surviving regular Jag an easy victory to trigger my GA.

The paradigm that the Aztecs are "supposed" to trigger an early GA and use it to rush their enemies is left over from previous versions, where the Jag was a potent military weapon in the early game. The new paradigm in C3C is that Jags should probably generally risk triggering an unwanted GA to do some raiding against neighbors, but that if the player can succeed in avoiding triggering a GA with the raids, the Aztecs' GA can be triggered about as early or late as the player wants (as long as it comes before the AIs get Replaceable Parts).
A big piece of the Aztecs' special flavor is gone.

[Dominae]

I think we should each play the scenario and come to our own conclusions. I'm sure we could all list off the virtues of Seafaring before playing AU501, but that did not invalidate the course. Given that Jags are such a debated issue, this should prove to be an interesting exercise.

I, for one, am not prepared to accept your conclusions about the Aztecs without some corroboration. Your aversion to the despotic GA clouds your judgement in this case, IMO; given the opportunity, you'll always delay your GA. The point of this course would be to test whether this is always the best thing to do.


Dominae

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by ducki
I definitely agree with that. So is Feudalism and/or 2+ gov switches, though not all once, hehe.

I think a JW/Feudalism/Govt switch AU course all combined would be great!

There are so many issues to consider in the governments debate and tweaks are often far-reaching. It may take several goes to "get it right" and this may be a good place to start and then re-open the debate with what we learn.

[Aeson]

Well, not having actually used the Jags in C3C, I figured I should have a stab at this and see if they still worked.

Started out roading and mining the coastal Bonus Grassland. 100% research - whatever was needed for Luxuries, towards The Wheel as the Iroquois are Commercial now and a likely neighbor. No Japan, so The Wheel is almost a no brainer.

First build is a Jag. I debated whether or not to build a Barracks first, but my first Jag was meant for no fighting at all. Find a neighbor, capture any free Workers, and pillage whatever I could guarantee (within reason) wouldn't result in a fight.

I also debated about whether to mine the Bonus Grasslands or not. In Civ/PtW I wouldn't, as the GA was going to be going from almost day one. In the case of an early GA, you don't need to road the river tiles except for in need of movement points either. I wasn't sure how quickly I was going to use Jags militarily (playing with the hopes of conquering 2 neighbors with them eventually), so I went with a more conventional terrain improvement.

My first Jag found America real quick. Normally it would be a bit slower, and I was a little nervous attacking so close to home so early. Their Workers split up the turn I saw them, giving no chance to capture both in one shot. Set up next to the Worker roading the Wines, and capture it next turn, retreating to safety. The Worker started heading back home, and the Jag moved North through American territory to draw the starting unit SOD that way.

This was the moment of truth, as I didn't know if the C3C AI would react like their Civ/PtW cousins. To make a long story short, C3C AI aren't any smarter. My first Jag was able to keep the American forces north of their capitol all by himself for the next 14 turns before a friendly Jag showed up to the West and the fun really started. If you have a unit in or next to AI territory, they seem intent on killing that unit or scaring it away. Even if your cities back home are 7 tiles distant and have no garrisons at all! Jag's movement becomes a killer in this situation. I rotated using a Jag on the West to pull all the free units that way, while pillaging the tiles to the East, and back and forth they marched.

America is dead for all intents and purposes at 2750BC. 1 Tile survives unpillaged, they have no Workers, and no second city (I think they do have a Settler in their city though). For peace I traded them The Wheel and Warrior Code for their other Worker, Bronze Working, and Masonry. I had previously traded the Iroquois Warrior Code for Alphabet and 20 gold.

The American war resulted in a captured American Worker, 4 pillaged tiles, and a peace treaty in my favor by about 200 gold. (The actual trade was more even, but they were willing to give up Bronze Working for free, and almost Bronze Working and the Worker). Back home I have 2 cities, both with Barracks.

I haven't gotten any units to the Iroquois territory yet. Apparent from where their Warriors showed up that they are somewhere to the West. Hope to beat them into submission so I never have to see a MW... gotta get a move on though! They don't have The Wheel yet, so I have time to hopefully scope out their territory and make sure they never get Horses.

[Aeson]

I caught an Incan Scout wandering by. Not something restricted to Jags, but a Jag did kill it.

The 'war' started off badly for me, the Inca didn't think I was very strong and wouldn't even sign peace for Alphabet. Oh well. Here's the deal after the Inca finally found me with 2 Reg Warriors, which I killed between 3 Vet Jags. I had already finished Philosophy (took Map Making), so I wanted them to have Writing anyways. Going to have to have someone strong on my continent to trade with...

[Aeson]

I had gone ahead with plans to attack the Iroquois. I didn't really want to be fighting 2 wars at once, but from what I knew of the landmass there was no way the Inca were going to make much noise. Set it up so the first turn I had 3 Vet Jags able to hit a Reg Warrior/Settler pair, and 2 Jags (one shared with the other group) set to capture 2 Workers.

Things went well as I was able to capture the Settler with 2 of the Jags, first one retreating. Then I captured the 2 Workers. I'd say the Iroquois were beaten right there. They did have Iron Working though, and so I was going to make sure that they didn't get a road on any Hills or Mountains, and to keep their Horses clear. (easily done as they won't send out Workers when a military unit is threatening)

Had 2 other Jags sliding in from the South, and they played ping pong with the Iroquois units. Made a few mistakes and got attacked 3 times (retreat, dead, elite), but was able to pillage every last tile the Iroquois had improved. Also killed 2 Reg Warriors and 2 Reg Archers so far, always using 2 Vet Jags at least per unit. So far I've lost 1 Jag attacking, had a few retreat at times, and gained another 2 Elite Jag on offense (one was from attacking the Incan units). Sadly one of of my Elites was the Jag that got killed when I left it open to attack (could have covered it with a Vet, but would have lost a chance to pillage a tile), wrongly thinking they wouldn't attack it on a mountain with 2 HP's. So only 2 Elites running around right now.

The GA has worked well, as I was able to get a 4 turn Worker factory up a couple Settlers early. THis has allowed me to keep ahead of the Inca in number of cities. At 1550BC I have 7 cities, 1 Settler going to found another in 2 turns. 3 native Workers, 5 captured, 11 Jags, and a Spearman. (was getting nervous )

The Iroquois have 4 size 1 cities, no tile improvement, no Workers, and only a few Warriors left. They'll give me the one city without a resource for peace, but really don't have anythign I want. Probably will stack my Jags and follow their Palace around capturing cities.

The Americans have founded another city now... still only 1 terrain improvement. Ran a Jag through just cause I was curious how long it would take them to get a Worker out.

[Aeson]

Went back and checked what the Iroquois had improved at the start of the war. 10 Tiles roaded (including the Wines, and a Worker about to finish another road), 3 with Mines (Worker starting on a Mine), and one Irrigated. All pillaged now.

[Aeson]

I kept at War with the Iroquois clear until 1025BC. Was trying to see how well Jags did at Leader farming. Fought a war each with the Inca (they demanded Map Making, thanks for the negative war weariness) and the Americans (they finally built a Worker, so I pillaged two tiles and made peace for the Worker).

I was floating at about 5-6 Elite Jags while Leader farming, killing off Reg Archers the Iroquois were sending out. I was attacking first with a Vet Jag, getting promotions or at least denting the Archer, then finishing off with an Elite if the Vet had lost or retreated. Got a Leader on my 7th kill with an Elite, then bunched my Jags and destroyed the Iroquois Horse city. Had a Vet Jag retreat, then a Vet Jag kill a Spearman, then a Vet Jag die and 2 Elite Jags die, then killed the second Spearman with an Elite Jag. That left the Iroquois with 3 cities, and they gave 2 of them to me for peace.

[alexman]

Another Aeson classic.

Well, this probably proves that the JW is still very powerful in the hands of the best player in the World, and everyone else still has lots to learn.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Well, this probably proves that the JW is still very powerful in the hands of the best player in the World, and everyone else still has lots to learn.

You're forgetting the great Sid himself...

[Aeson]

I was a bit suprised how well Jags worked. I have a suspicion they may even work on Sid difficulty. At least as well as any civ can 'work' on Sid. The AI SOD's will be bigger but still can't touch you if you can find some open space on their borders. Hard part will be getting the AI's to sign peace.

High river maps probably help the Aztec more than anyone else. As an Agricultural civ you of course want them in your territory. As the Aztecs you even want rivers in your neighbors territory. Rivers magnify the Jags movement bonus, allowing you to easily set up SOD ping pongs, and keep the number of Jags needed back home lower.

Good terrain for your neighbors isn't something to fear with Jags either. The Americans had an excellent starting location foodwise but their REX was nullified completely. The Iroquois were going to be relatively tough to crack if they were allowed to freely expand until Swords and Horses were available.

The Aztec also benefit more from culturally linked starts than probably anyone. No Scientific civs means no AI's with lots of spare Spearmen running around. It also should give you a chance to hit a neighbor at decent odds early on (at least up to Emperor) if you were to go with a Jag rush. The only downside is that Chasqui (especially the 30 shield ATAR ones) are one of the two units that could deal with Jags effectively in the hands of the AI. Impi are probably something you want to avoid like the plague. At 10 shields there was some chance Jags would beat Impi, but at 15 I don't think fighting Impi could be efficient. If the Zulu are your neighbors, pillage or attack a Reg Warrior defended town very early, and make peace when they get BW. Do throw away a Jag to start their GA first though.

I'd say that the Aztec also benefit almost as much as an expansionist civ from low barbarian settings, and maybe the most from no barbarians at all. It slows down the tech rate if no one is popping huts, allows you to REX without tying up Jags if there are no barbarian camps, and the AI keeps their SOD's at home instead of out hitting barbarian camps. All things which extend the life of the Jags or make using them safer.

So this map was seemingly perfect to highlight every advantage you can get from a Jag (and Aztecs in general). The advantage of the Jag is certainly the ability to wage unconventional warfare while building up units towards a Sword rush. Quite possible (~Emperor) to have an Army waiting to fill with Swords as soon as you can get them. I had 9 Elite battles (lost 2) in that timeframe. Used the leader for the FP though, but if another strong neighbor was around a Sword army would definitely have been a priority.

One thing which may or may not be a plus depending on your perspective is that the AI likes to pop rush when you have a unit within attacking distance of their city. I thought the AI was building Settlers, but it turns out they were pop rushing Spears and Archers. This amplifies the amount of damage being done to the AI tremendously, but also negates much of the value you can take from an AI.

[Arrian]

I love reading Aeson's accounts of how he mangled the poor, unwitting AI. It's like reading the memoirs of a criminal mastermind or something. Keyser Soze!

Given that I never really got the hang of using Jags in PTW*, I'm not really qualified to chime in about their usefulness. On the other hand, an AU course involving them might do me good.

-Arrian

* - Like Nathan, I despise a despotic GA. I want to be in republic, and to have a chance to pump my cities' pop up before triggering it. So all I ever really tried to do with Jags was what Aeson did to the Americans: steal workers and break things, without fighting battles. I wasn't as good at that as he is, though. I never really did it well, or at least never felt I had.

[Aqualung71]

Just read Aeson's report.

I am truly stunned.

[Theseus]

Aeson, you, uh, damn... continue to surprise and impress.

You are too darned good, though, for the point of this discussion. I had the same reaction as Thriller... *stunned*, and think I know a thing or two about playing this game.

Two thoughts:

1) We still need to test JWs at different cost, as Aeson's report is too far from the norm.

2) We need to plan for an AU game that will test Aeson's expertise and 'out of the box' thinking... I'm tired and prolly rambling here, but, without putting Aeson on the spot (I'd throw in Vel too), once we are used to C3C, we should think of a challenging AU course that *requires* the innovative kind of approach that Aeson just exhibited in Nathan's JW test game.

Jesu, I'd like to re-iterate: Aeson, you rock, you are the bomb, we are not worthy. Would you consider, maybe, [oh, this *might* be a great idea!] a PHD course for those of us needing such?

[alexman]

Originally posted by Theseus
1) We still need to test JWs at different cost, as Aeson's report is too far from the norm.

I'm not sure I agree. Aeson's execution of his JW strategy was brilliant, but he used the unit exactly as he and others were arguing it should be used before playing this test game.

I'll say it again: Making changes to balance the game for lower levels of play when it's already balanced at higher levels of play is not part of the mod's philosophy. To make the most out of the Jaguar Warrior, we should try to master Aeson's strategy instead of changing the unit to fit own level of play!

[ducki]

Originally posted by alexman
I'll say it again: Making changes to balance the game for lower levels of play when it's already balanced at higher levels of play is not part of the mod's philosophy.

Additionally, comparing a unit with identical stats but different costs will have only one conclusion, which Dominae has pointed out - cheaper is better.

We don't have a control group and any results or conclusions will be fuzzy - Aeson's skill just accentuates that fact without invalidating or affirming either side. Yes, if you play to the strength's of your Civ(UU included) you will do well. If you fight against your Civ's natural tendencies/abilities, you will have a harder time. Aeson just does a great job of recognizing and exploiting(in the good way) whatever Civ he plays.

That's just my opinion, I could be a turnip-brain.

[pvzh]

Quote:

ducki:I definitely agree with that. So is Feudalism and/or 2+ gov switches, though not all once, hehe.

Thriller:I think a JW/Feudalism/Govt switch AU course all combined would be great!

* Humbly, points out that there is such game *

Power of Feudalism

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by pvzh

* Humbly, points out that there is such game *

Power of Feudalism

Yes I know you had set up that game pvzh, though unfortunately for me I had 2 others going at the same time. I was thinking of an "official" AU game, but there's probably no need now.

[Theseus]

I've been playing pvzh's game... lots fun.

Back to this discussion:

So what are we then saying... advise newer players that Aztecs, or more properly, their UU, are only for advanced expertise?

That's kinda silly, IMHO.

[alexman]

I wouldn't advise them that, but I might try to explain the best way to take advantage of Jags (if I were Aeson ), and perhaps every player can use them properly. It's still easier at lower levels.

[sabrewolf]

aeson just never stops to surprise and impress me. always when i think i've heard of every strategy, up comes another one. "so cold", the "AU501-no military unit until marines"-strategy, this one here... and dozens of other ones i've forgotton to mention but deserve it just as much.

i don't think sid meier planned civ3 to be this deep, but obviously there's no situation without a aesonian strategy

i'd really like to see a match between bamspeedy (aka. the 80+ MGL-guy@beyond sid) and aeson