The Haitian Solution

[Az]

I must apologize. The previous post in no way means that I think that gay people like to be raped.

Are you saying there is an anal rape gap between the United States and Cuba?

Well, I think that there is less such violence in cuban prisons because of stuff I read from an Israeli who was in a cuban prison.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Well prisoners in the US prison system have access to television (and it doesn't have Fidel Castro on every channel). In fact some people want to commit crimes so they can go back to prison because the conditions are better than anything they are currently getting.

Several of my family members including my dad and brother went to prison. My Dad came back normal. Everyone one else came out screwed in the head. Prison, for most people is one of the worst things that can happen. I don't care if there is TV or not.
You obviously don't know too many ex-cons or you've been lied too.

[Pax]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


More often than not he is a Nero or Saddam Hussein.

I disagree. The ones we know most about are the ones who have been incredibly bad or incredibly good.
The Romans for instance were very effective at organization and building infrastructure. You can't name every single emperor but you remember the Caligula's and the Nero's. But don't forget that the roads and aquaducts the Romans built. The dark ages are basically, the absensce of the strong central government of Rome.
Going back to my point. There is a possibility that a strong central government can be formed that can solidify the country behind a cause. This government need not be a dictator or communist or socialist. It does not have to be run by one person it can be a committee, congress, parliament or whatever. But initially, it has to be strong. Strong does not mean corrupt. The problem with the governments in Haiti is that they have been either corrupt or weak. Sometimes both. The system would need cchecks and balances to make sure the governing bodies are not above the law. But it can be done.

Let me admit that Giancarlo is right that Vietnam, China, and Cuba are neither communist nor socialist. Just like the U.S. is not 100 percent democratic. It's possible to when the majority of votes in the U.S. and still lose and election without any help from the supreme court. Vietnam, China, and Cuba have stated that they are communist and until a time of there choosing they will remain that way. I would assume to mean that the majority of there policies tend towards communism or socialism. Just like some policies in the U.S. are socialist in nature. The free school lunch for example.

In the end Giancarlo,
I think it's ignorant of you to dismiss an idea out of hand. I think that the type of person you are is atypical of the problems of the world. You have your mindset and anyone who disagrees immediately becomes an idiot or some other negative term. You are the description of a fool

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

No I don't know everything. I do know that if a country adopts a form of government that does not mean that this is why they committed some evil. We are communist so we must commit genocide. NO.
When you say Cuba is 1/10 of what it was what does that really mean. NOTHING. Why, because it does not really speak to wheter or not the average citizen is better off under Castro or Batista. I personally think Castro.
Once again are the Chinese better off now or at the turn of the century. Are they still considered the weak men of asia. When did this change. Under Communism you say.

The fact is that Genocides, GDP/GNP's, aside these countries are much more powerful now than at the turn of the century or even in 1945, 1949, and 1959 for Cuba. These now have self determination like never before.

OK, why don't we ask the average citizen who was alive in '59 and now. Many are in the US. What do they think? Obviously, they voted with their feet. Ask the people still in Cuba? How? You have a police state where if anyone says anything opposing the government they go "away."

PAX, you may be right. But there is no way to really tell.

However, the circumstantial evidence is not good for you being right. Those who flee Cuba would strongly disagree. Those who visit Cuba see only 1950s vintage cars and trucks. The buildings are crumbling and the people are living at subsistance. Nothing indicates the people are better off except the statements of the Cuban government.

[JCG]

As long as they put someone non-corrupt, non-bloodthirsty and halfway efficient at management in charge, they can do whatever they want (with a good amount of U.N. or international aid to get them started), as far as I'm concerned...

[pchang]

Originally posted by JCG
As long as they put someone non-corrupt, non-bloodthirsty and halfway efficient at management in charge, they can do whatever they want (with a good amount of U.N. or international aid to get them started), as far as I'm concerned...

Well that pretty much rules out all the likely suspects.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Ned
OK, why don't we ask the average citizen who was alive in '59 and now. Many are in the US. What do they think? Obviously, they voted with their feet. Ask the people still in Cuba? How? You have a police state where if anyone says anything opposing the government they go "away."

When Castro came to power American business left. One of the biggest markets was no longer available to Cuba. If you were Castro you had 2 choices. Submit or stand up for yourself. The way I see it Cuba stood up for itself. I am proud to be an american an I applaud this show of independance. For years the U.S. had mettled in Cuba's affairs. As such, the U.S. basically made Cuba ripe for Castro to come to power. I think that the two countries should come to terms and the U.S. should open the market. If the Cuban government fails after that then Ned and anyone who agrees with you is obviously right. But if Cuba prospers and citizens are provided with a higher quality of life and more freedom then i am obviously right. Cuba is not exactly an Island paradise. There are obviously many problems that need fixing. Prostitution for one, but how many problems exist because of the U.S. past and present influence.
Let me ask you again. Would you rather live in Haiti or Cuba. Is the quality of and respect for life more in Haiti or Cuba.

[Pax]

If you go to Puerto Rico or Tijuana you can see other places that are falling apart in Latin America.

If you go to the Virgin Islands and turn off the tourist streets you can see what it's probably like for the average Cuban

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

When Castro came to power American business left.

This may be the actual cause of Cuba's poverty.

The obvious question then is why American businesses left.

The second question is how Castro gets them to return.

Pax, do you know the answers to these questions?

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Giancarlo

And the embargo should stay until Castro stops executing the opposition.

Backwards as usual Fez. The opposition should continue to be executed until the embargo ends.

[Ned]

The solution to Haiti's poverty is to encourage international businesses to invest.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Ned


This may be the actual cause of Cuba's poverty.

The obvious question then is why American businesses left.

The second question is how Castro gets them to return.

Pax, do you know the answers to these questions?

“Once the United States is in Cuba, who will get her out?”
José Martí

In 1934 Fulgencio Batista took over the Cuban government in what became known as "The Revolt of the Sergeants." For the next twenty-five years he ruled Cuba with an iron fist, and the full blessing and endorsement of the United States government, who feared a social and economic revolution and saw him as a stabilizing force with respect for American interests.

Batista established lasting relationships with organized crime, and under his guardianship Havana became known as "the Latin Las Vegas." Meyer Lansky and other prominent gangsters were heavily invested in Havana, and politicians from Batista on down took their cut.
By the late 1950’s, American capital control:
90% of Cuba’s mines
80% of its public utilities
50% of its railways
40% of its sugar production
25% of its bank deposits

Batista was ousted by Castro and the Cuban Revolution and left the country on January 1 1959. He died in 1973

Tough situation
head of the foreign affairs committee of the Cuban National Assembly, Jorge Lezcano Perez, said, "It is important to understand the background of the changes taking place in Cuba. The collapse of the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc was a hard blow for the Cuban economy. Around 85 percent of our total trade was with these countries. Overnight we lost 70 percent of our import capacity. 1n addition to this was the tightening of the U.S. economic blockade. Cuba does not receive any financial assistance from international financial institutions. It receives no assistance from bilateral sources either. As a result of all this, we were faced with a situation we were not prepared to face. We had to carry out our foreign trade in hard currency - in cash. We had to undertake a struggle for survival."

It was in this struggle to survive . . . that the Cuban leadership was forced to carry out many changes. "We were compelled to open our economy and reach out to foreign investors. To people who express concern about what Cuba is doing, I ask them what else could Cuba have done, I ask them which country can do without foreign investment in the climate we are living to day," Perez said.

I think I've located the problem. The solution would be for the U.S. to open its markets to Cuba and demand that they make the same kinds human rights concessions we demand from China.

[Kidicious]

The solution for Cuba is a communist revolution in the US.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ned
The second question is how Castro gets them to return.

Pax, do you know the answers to these questions?

He should sponsor a bill in Congress to make it legal for American businesses to return?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ned
The solution to Haiti's poverty is to encourage international businesses to invest.

Would you invest $10 in a country where ex-soldiers feel free to hold up random passers-by on the street, and where monied interests see support for rebels to be a viable form of opposition to the government?

If so, I have a nice little bridge property you may be interested in. It's in a desert, but it has a nice lake view. It is sure to be hot!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

Several of my family members including my dad and brother went to prison. My Dad came back normal. Everyone one else came out screwed in the head. Prison, for most people is one of the worst things that can happen. I don't care if there is TV or not.
You obviously don't know too many ex-cons or you've been lied too.

Prison is for people who violate the law. You have been lied to. Afterall, all your economical and political views are pretty off.

[notyoueither]

Can we throw her out of a helicopter now? Can we? Huh, huh? Can we?

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Afterall, all your economical and political views are pretty off.

I'm sure he will take that as a compliment if he has seen any of your posts.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Prison is for people who violate the law. You have been lied to. Afterall, all your economical and political views are pretty off.

???? What have I been lied to about? I agree prison is for people who break the law. When you attack me at least justify what you are saying. My political views like gays should be allowed to marry is off. really?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Going back to my point. There is a possibility that a strong central government can be formed that can solidify the country behind a cause.

A strong central government that keeps social order and lays off the economy is possible, I will admit.

Strong does not mean corrupt.

The government you want is big, and we know with big governments corruption is prevalent.

The system would need cchecks and balances to make sure the governing bodies are not above the law. But it can be done.

I actually proposed instating a check and balances system. The problem with Haiti is it did have a parliament, but the terms of those MPs expired about a year ago. And the Judicary is full of corruption.

Just like the U.S. is not 100 percent democratic.

No state has ever been 100 percent democratic.

It's possible to when the majority of votes in the U.S. and still lose and election without any help from the supreme court.

It is called the Electoral college. But that is not an issue. I believe it is a better system than the popular vote system.

Vietnam, China, and Cuba have stated that they are communist and until a time of there choosing they will remain that way.

They aren't communist or socialist, it doesn't matter what they say. It was like the "Democratic Republic of Kampuchea"... Pol Pot's Cambodia was neither Democratic nor was it a republic.

I would assume to mean that the majority of there policies tend towards communism or socialism.

No actually they don't as businesses are left alone pretty much. Especially in China.

I think it's ignorant of you to dismiss an idea out of hand.

You were the one dismissing my ideas out right.

I think that the type of person you are is atypical of the problems of the world.

You are full of crap. I have seen this world and seen what works and what doesn't. I think you are the type of person who does not have a clue about what would really work for a country.

You have your mindset and anyone who disagrees immediately becomes an idiot or some other negative term. You are the description of a fool

NO you are the description of a fool because you have no concept of capitalism or a system that would work.

Lets take an example: Ecuador. In the 90s, it took on a strong centralized government and this led to economic chaos because of arbitrary price controls. Private businesses fled and the country's coffers were depleted by socialist spending schemes. The country had a major oil source but much of this was mismanaged because of the state owned petroleum country. The same thing happened in Cuba. The economy is in total shambles because of gross mismanagement. I don't see how a person with half a brain could stand up for such a system.

You also totally ignored the other points I made here.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I'm sure he will take that as a compliment if he has seen any of your posts.

The very ideology you hold is contradictory in nature.

Pax:

???? What have I been lied to about? I agree prison is for people who break the law. When you attack me at least justify what you are saying. My political views like gays should be allowed to marry is off. really?

I haven't been lied about anything either. I came up to my own beliefs based on personal values I have made. I have justified everything I have said with numerous articles and pieces of evidence, whereas you have not. I have made a strong showing in this thread and any attempt to state that I have not is inaccurate of the reality.

Homosexuality is not related to this thread. I was talking about your economic views, and political views on what should happen to Haiti. I happen to be gay, but that is not of issue here.

[Pax]

You said ALL my political views. I just pointed out one my homosexual friend. You can't expect me to have knowledge of every single point you make. If I don't make a comment on it I'm either agreeing or not challenging the validity of it. I respect all of your actual points and opinions and none of your insults. What I'm trying to get at is that the same solution may not work for every country. Capitalism and democracy may not be penicillin. I have also given a number of stats and facts. You point to failure. I point to possible benefits from something that really has not been tried yet. therefore facts are few. But look at the facts presented here. Cuba has a higher literacy rate and lower child death rate than Haiti or it's neighbor the Dominican Republic. This may not be important to you. But I consider literacy and important foundation in a society being able to respect the law, build and maintain infrastructure. Healthy children at birth is a sign of a healthy society. I direct reflection on the life of the mother. I'm not advocating that Cuba or any other government should be socialist/communist or any other dictatorship. I'm saying that new solutions are needed in third world to save these people from further suffering. If you think my ideas are so bad restate yours and we can tear them down for you.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
You said ALL my political views. I just pointed out one my homosexual friend.

I was talking strictly in the context of this thread. My sexual orientation is not of any importance to this thread and is not relevant to what I think should be done with Haiti and why I think Fidel Castro rules illegitimately.

I respect all of your actual points and opinions and none of your insults.

I have made many points and you went after me.

What I'm trying to get at is that the same solution may not work for every country.

And I am saying not necessarily. Capitalism worked for Chile... democracy had to come a bit later but that is not the point. Chile is a successful nation.

I have also given a number of stats and facts. You point to failure. I point to possible benefits from something that really has not been tried yet.

I have suggested a different form of government.

Cuba has a higher literacy rate and lower child death rate than Haiti or it's neighbor the Dominican Republic.

That's not the point. I am talking about economic prosperity. Dominican Republic is not going broke. Cuba is. Cuba's economic system has been teetering on collapse and bankruptcy ever since the Soviet Union collapsed. Cuba was propped up by the Soviet Union therefore had plenty of money to spend on literacy and health care. But that money is running out. Russia no longer gives out huge handouts to Cuba because they don't have money themselves.

But I consider literacy and important foundation in a society being able to respect the law, build and maintain infrastructure.

I always considered literacy an important foundation. Again you are attempting to say I made claims that literacy was not important. I clearly said it was important.

Quoted from post made on: 01-03-2004 05:45

"You can't set a wage on a relatively uneducated group of people. What needs to be done is building infrastructure to educate them so they have what it takes to get better jobs thus attracting more FDI."

Healthy children at birth is a sign of a healthy society.

Cuba's not a healthy society. Despite having healthy people, these people are brutally repressed and do not have a say in the government.

I'm saying that new solutions are needed in third world to save these people from further suffering. If you think my ideas are so bad restate yours and we can tear them down for you.

How about the Chilean model? Why won't that work? It did in Chile, which was a third world country. It has some of the most fiscally sound banking systems in the Americas, people are paid well there, and they live relatively long.

Life Expectancy (Chile):

total population: 76.35 years
male: 73.04 years
female: 79.82 years (2003 est.)

definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 96.2%
male: 96.4%
female: 96.1% (2003 est.)

GDP: purchasing power parity - $156.1 billion (2002 est.)
GDP - real growth rate: 2.1% (2002 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $10,100 (2002 est.)

Growth is doing better this year because of a swift recovery from the regional crisis. Chile actually fared quite well considering. Its credit rating, which is very high, has stayed and its reputation as an all around solid economy has been maintained.

[Chilean President™]

I think the Chilean model worked because the institutions of the country did a good job and we didn't have corruption, at least not at the same level than other countries of the region.

Anyway I believe that every nation should find they own model.. I mean, if they want to pursuit a open market economy they should do it their own way and not a copy/paste from another country's model, IMHO.

[Pax]

Your sexual preference is not an issue yet. Only your views on whether or not gays should be allowed to marry because you constantly conduct personal attacks. You said all my views were wrong. You should retract your statement and apologize.

So you think that the system in Chile will work in Haiti. Will it also work in Iraq? Algeria?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Your sexual preference is not an issue yet. Only your views on whether or not gays should be allowed to marry because you constantly conduct personal attacks.

Why should they be of issue when they are not relevant to the subject we are discussing? If you want to discuss with me on those issues, there are threads for it. And what do supposed "personal attacks" have to do with gay marriage? Nothing.

You said all my views were wrong. You should retract your statement and apologize.

I said your views as related to this thread were off.

So you think that the system in Chile will work in Haiti. Will it also work in Iraq? Algeria?

Quite possibly. It depends on if corruption is cleaned up.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
all your economical and political views are pretty off.

My view on homosexuals is political. Your statement discredits everything I have said in support of gays. I did not make the statement. You did.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

My view on homosexuals is political. Your statement discredits everything I have said in support of gays. I did not make the statement. You did.

I was talking about this damn thread. Stop trying to twist my words.

I am not discrediting anything you say on gays. I am discrediting everything you say in this thread.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


I was talking about this damn thread. Stop trying to twist my words.

I am not discrediting anything you say on gays. I am discrediting everything you say in this thread.

Why do you constantly accuse me of twisiting your words. You did not say you were talking about the thread. That pretty convenient for you change your statement without retracting it.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

Why do you constantly accuse me of twisiting your words. You did not say you were talking about the thread. That pretty convenient for you change your statement without retracting it.

You are twisting my words. You make claims about my beliefs I did not state (and at times was against those claims myself). Convenient? No that is what I was referring to.