Linked Alliance Insanity

saturn · March 2, 2004, 09:37

I'm playing Russia in the Napoleanic wars conquest. 1.15.

I had a mutual protection pact with Britain. Then Holland, which has a linked alliance with Britain declares war on Britain (first insanity?). So now I find myself at war with Holland.

Since I had long ago occupied most of Prussia, I turned my sights toward Holland, and invaded. Only to find myself at war with Britain. After all, Britain has a linked MPP with Holland, right (second insanity)?

What the $#%@ is wrong here?

vmxa1 · March 2, 2004, 12:38

Don't know about "linked", but the declaring war should have broken any MPP. How can you stay in an MPP while they are at war with you? That does seem insane.

TheArsenal · March 2, 2004, 13:04

I am assuming you mean “locked alliances” in place of “linked alliances”. If that’s the case, I’m not sure how those wars happened, but I haven’t played that particular conquest either.

I have a Locked Alliance mod I play quite a bit (where locked alliance countries share UUs) and even though the locked alliance works virtually like a game long MPP there are some differences I’ve found. And one of them is you can’t actually go to war or break the MPP with one of the countries you’re in a locked alliance with. Physically, the game will not even allow you to attack an allied player’s units. It gives you a pop up message telling you that you can’t attack that unit.

That is why, again, I’m not sure how Holland declared war on Britain at all. It shouldn’t be able to. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

vmxa1 · March 2, 2004, 14:39

That is how I read it as well.

Willem · March 2, 2004, 19:21

Quote:

Originally posted by saturn
I'm playing Russia in the Napoleanic wars conquest. 1.15.

I had a mutual protection pact with Britain. Then Holland, which has a linked alliance with Britain declares war on Britain (first insanity?). So now I find myself at war with Holland.

Since I had long ago occupied most of Prussia, I turned my sights toward Holland, and invaded. Only to find myself at war with Britain. After all, Britain has a linked MPP with Holland, right (second insanity)?

What the $#%@ is wrong here?

It's not possible for Holland to declare war on Britain, you must have misread something.

saturn · March 3, 2004, 03:32

Yes I meant "locked" not linked.

And yes, I reiterate. Holland declared war on Britain. (I never declared war on Britain, I was informed that I was at war.

But its OK guys. Go ahead. Shoot the messanger.

Barinthus · March 3, 2004, 14:11

Sounds like the powderkeg of Europe before WWI to me.

Tall Stranger · March 3, 2004, 15:02

Saturn,

The best way to confirm your claim is to post the save, preferrably for the turn right before Holland declared war on England.

This is an obvious question, but did you modify the game in any way?

saturn · March 4, 2004, 04:00

I thought of posting a save, but the file is long gone. I'm deep into the new Pirates conquest. (And loving it).

Sorry.

joncnunn · March 4, 2004, 11:59

As I recall, Holland's locked alliance is with France.

Quote:

Originally posted by saturn
I'm playing Russia in the Napoleanic wars conquest. 1.15.

I had a mutual protection pact with Britain. Then Holland, which has a linked alliance with Britain declares war on Britain (first insanity?). So now I find myself at war with Holland.

Since I had long ago occupied most of Prussia, I turned my sights toward Holland, and invaded. Only to find myself at war with Britain. After all, Britain has a linked MPP with Holland, right (second insanity)?

What the $#%@ is wrong here?

jshelr · March 4, 2004, 16:04

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
As I recall, Holland's locked alliance is with France.

Don't think so. I think France's locked alliance is with the crazy Danes who will screw the poor French by declaring war at terribly inappropriate times.

lethe · March 4, 2004, 17:09

Netherlands is locked with Naples and Britain with Portugal.

So the Dutch declaring war on the English isn't terribly exciting news.

Slax · March 7, 2004, 13:29

Umm, I don't think so. I just played this and it was Britain, Portugal, The Netherlands and Naples all locked. France and Denmark are locked.

I just checked my notes from this game, and found that at no time did locked civs declare war on each other.

Switch · March 7, 2004, 15:46

Yes, Slax is correct. I just checked it with the Editor, and it is France with Denmark, and Britain with Naples, Netherlands, and Portugal.

Sounds like there may have been a bug?

smellymummy · March 7, 2004, 16:13

or the messenger edited something?

saturn · March 9, 2004, 10:49

Good point, but didn't edit it.

When I finish the current conquest, I'll try to go back and recreate this again. Stay tuned...

saturn · March 10, 2004, 04:00

Here is an example. Naples in a locked alliance with Britain. And at war with Britain.
Just press F4...

Dry · March 10, 2004, 09:55

I haven't look at your saved game yet, but is it possible that Holland had an MPP with a third party (say Sweden) and that Sweden was attacked by Britain, hence triggering the war between Brits and Batavians?

binyo66 · April 7, 2004, 00:00

I got the same problem.
I made a mode. Large, 31civs+me, and divided by 4 lock MPP alliance. To make it simple,
For example :
Lock Alliance A - A1, A2, A3, A4
Lock Alliance B - B1, B2, B3, B4
No Alliance C (Me)
1. C ally with B1
2. C declare war on B2
next turn
3. B2 attack C on C' soil
4. B1 declare war on B2 (standard MPP)
next turn
5. B1 Attack B2

6. B3, and B4 declare war on B1 (Lock MPP)
7. B3 attack B1

8. B2, and B4 declare war on B3 (Lock MPP)
etc.
At the end, Lock Alliance B is fighting each other, and it seems they never peace (once they declare war ussually they dont want to talk each other for at least 10 turns). So, the turns seems never ending (but I havent checked, too many pop ups. Just quit the game)

Kaos XIII · April 7, 2004, 00:10

I haven't checked the save, but I know it happens, cause it happened to me.

As France, I had to go and wipe out the Danes, which wasn't a bad thing actually.

binyo66 · April 7, 2004, 00:27

If u have other locked alliance (except holand and england) you have to wipe them off also

Switch · April 7, 2004, 00:48

Looks like we've found another "feature" that Firaxis decided not to mention in the manual

...chances are it may be 'mentioned' in a later patch, though...

Seriously, though, perhaps Civs in a locked alliance shouldn't be able to sign MPPs, or have MPPs not take effect in such situations.

binyo66 · April 7, 2004, 02:33

"Feature" is a nica call. I could beat on any level alone, as long as other civs are locked alliance one each other. I'm agree a civ with Locked MPP should not make any other MPP. However, AFAIK the locked MPP never make MPP with other parties (AI) (but I just played 1-2 games with Locked MPP). But, they do ally with other locked MPP parties very often.

Last Conformist · April 7, 2004, 08:35

I guess the easy solution would be banning MPPs in games with locked alliances.

TheArsenal · April 7, 2004, 11:12

That’s interesting. Because as I noted above, in a locked alliance mod I made, I’ve tested and tried to attack units I’ve been in a locked alliance with. The system wouldn’t let me. It looks like MPPs throws everything into chaos.

One oddity I did notice playing the mod:

The locked alliance drags me into a war. Standard MPP procedure – the foreign advisor pops up, tells me (let’s say) China has attacked our brothers the (let’s say) Iroquois so we must declare war on the Chinese. I check the diplomacy screen and the red line shows that we are at war with the Chinese. Then the Iroquois sue for peace, and without my having to negotiate peace on my own, the red line disappears and I am no longer at war with the Chinese. This has happened more than once.

I’ve been dragged into wars with a MPP in the epic game, I don’t ever remember being able to go from war to peace without using the diplomatic screen.

Paddy · April 8, 2004, 01:11

I have never been able to break any LOCKED ALLIANCES either

binyo66 · April 14, 2004, 06:09

It's difficult to break your own lock MPP. The trick is to MPP with a civ that would declare war on one of your lock MPP (or the other around), and then expecting your locked MPP civ would attack your MPP (which would force you to declare war on your own locked alliance).But its easy to break other party alliance.