Bonds cheated. Strip him of home run record?

[Ned]

Bonds (and perhaps Sosa and McGuire as well) cheated by taking steroids in setting their home run records. Should we strip them of their home run records?

Selig seem strangely unconcerned about how this kind of gross misbehavior may forever taint baseball unless baseball does something about the home run records.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...type=printable

"San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds, New York Yankees stars Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield and three other major league baseball players received steroids from a Burlingame nutritional supplement lab, federal investigators were told.

The baseball stars allegedly got the illegal performance-enhancing drugs from the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative through Greg Anderson, Bonds' personal weight trainer and longtime friend, according to information furnished the government and shared with The Chronicle.

In addition to Bonds, Giambi and Sheffield, the other baseball players said to have received steroids from BALCO via Anderson were two former Giants, outfielder Marvin Benard and catcher Benito Santiago, and a former A's second baseman, Randy Velarde.

Oakland Raiders linebacker Bill Romanowski also was said to have received performance-enhancing drugs.

Anderson allegedly obtained a so-called designer steroid known as "the clear" and a testosterone-based steroid known as "the cream" from BALCO and supplied the substances to all six baseball players, the government was told. In addition, Bonds was said to have received human growth hormone, a powerful substance that legally cannot be distributed without a prescription, investigators were told.

Agents obtained the information about the baseball players and illegal drugs last September during a probe that resulted in the indictment of Anderson, BALCO owner Victor Conte and two other Bay Area men on steroid conspiracy charges.

The information shared with The Chronicle did not explicitly state that the athletes had used the drugs they were said to have obtained. Bonds, who is baseball's single-season home-run king, and Giambi, who won the American League Most Valuable Player award when he was with the Oakland Athletics, have publicly denied using steroids. So has Sheffield. All three declined to discuss the matter Monday.

....

Ashcroft vowed to crack down on steroid abuse, saying it threatens the integrity of sports and "fosters a destructive culture contrary to the values that make sports such an important part of American life."

But even as it promised to get tough on steroids, the government took unusual steps to turn the focus away from the elite athletes suspected of using the illegal substances that BALCO allegedly supplied. Early on, the government said it was not interested in prosecuting athletes for using steroids, instead granting them immunity when they were called to testify before the grand jury.

The government also has deleted from public court files the names of every athlete who allegedly obtained illegal performance-enhancing drugs from BALCO."

....

"Contacted for comment Monday, Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig called steroids "sinister and seductive" and said he was distressed about the allegations about the players.

'We at Major League Baseball must strive for zero tolerance as it relates to the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs,' Selig said in a statement. 'We will do everything in our power to get to zero tolerance as soon as possible.'"

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ned
"Contacted for comment Monday, Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig called steroids "sinister and seductive" and said he was distressed about the allegations about the players.

'We at Major League Baseball must strive for zero tolerance as it relates to the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs,' Selig said in a statement. 'We will do everything in our power to get to zero tolerance as soon as possible.'"

Cheated... up until this year it wasn't against baseball rules... so how can you call it cheating

I love his "as soon as possible" line... they've ignored it for years because the fans love the home runs.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ming
Cheated... up until this year it wasn't against baseball rules... so how can you call it cheating

If that's the case, then any such conduct before the rule was enacted shouldn't be taken into account, I suppose.

Then again, obtaining the drugs sans prescription was still quite illegal even before the rule, so should that fact have any bearing on their disposition?

[Ming]

While they could be arrested... it still wasn't against baseball rules... go figure

[Boris Godunov]

Yes, but IIRC many sports organizations will punish illegal behavior, even if it isn't specifically against their rules.

[chequita guevara]

Sadly, I think Ming's correct. McGuire was taking something that he admitted. It was a pre-steroid that you can buy legitimately in many nuitritional supplement stores (like GNC). The body converts it to testosterone. It's a technical way of getting around not being able to get steroids, make your body produce more of them.

[Ming]

The problem is... Baseball has been "turning a blind eye" to the problem for years... Even their current new testing rules show what a farce Selig's zero tolerence comments are.

[Arrian]

The MLBPA treats the steroid issue as a bargaining chip. Given their power, and the interest the owners/commish have in keeping the status quo (the aforementioned love of home runs), I doubt any real change will come of this.

-Arrian

[The Mad Viking]

Bring back the *

[Japher]

At least he wasn't corking his bat

[Ming]

Yep... which is funny. corking the bat is and was against baseball rules. Yet even the best experts say it really doesn't help all that much. Yet steriods weren't illegal, and they can make A BIG DIFFERENCE. Go figure

[Imran Siddiqui]

up until this year it wasn't against baseball rules

Yep, that's the point. If it wasn't against the rules, then he couldn't have cheated, and nothing is being stripped.

Everyone laughs at Jeff Kent for saying Ruth and Gehrig may have been taking something. THEY WERE! It was steroids (like Kent said), but they were taking drugs to help their performance.

[pchang]

Originally posted by Ming
Yep... which is funny. corking the bat is and was against baseball rules. Yet even the best experts say it really doesn't help all that much. Yet steriods weren't illegal, and they can make A BIG DIFFERENCE. Go figure

I'm not so sure that steroids make that big a difference. It doesn't matter how powerfully you swing the bat if you can't connect. Steriods and football is another story.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Indeed... hitting the ball squarely is the hardest thing to do in baseball. Steroids will help the ball go farther, true... but you still have to be able to hit. It ain't like Bonds wasn't an All-Star and MVP winner when he didn't look steroid-bulked.

[Ming]

Yes... you still have to hit the ball... but the extra distance is the difference between an easy fly out and a home run

[pchang]

What would be the result if you plotted every fly ball hit by a player for the season and then added 10 ft. to each of them? How many more home runs would result?

[MrBaggins]

I wouldn't strip him of the home run record... but I'd strip him of that stupid armor he wears at the plate, ever since he got a boo-boo years ago.

[Imran Siddiqui]

the extra distance is the difference between an easy fly out and a home run

I do understand that. But, my point is that Bonds wasn't really a leg 'em out hitter before he got big . He was a slugger back then. He probably gets a few more HRs because of it, but not as much as a lot of people think.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Indeed... hitting the ball squarely is the hardest thing to do in baseball. Steroids will help the ball go farther, true... but you still have to be able to hit. It ain't like Bonds wasn't an All-Star and MVP winner when he didn't look steroid-bulked.

Hitting a round ball squarely with a round bat is indeed the primarly skill in hitting.

However, although this is just my recollection from watching nearly every Yankees game over the last several years, it seems to me that there are a AWFUL lot of those "broken bat homerun" thingamagigs. Jamshots, pop flies, etc. that carry over the wall. "Oh, he just muscled that one out!" crows the announcer.

Look, you know when a player connects solidly. You can just tell: the ball rockets off the bat. But so many home runs are not the product of solid contact, but rather so-so contact + incredible strength of the hitter. Which is fine... except if the hitter got that strength via the use of steroids.

-Arrian

[DanS]

The MLBPA treats the steroid issue as a bargaining chip. Given their power, and the interest the owners/commish have in keeping the status quo (the aforementioned love of home runs), I doubt any real change will come of this.

Bush should threaten to regulate the game. Before you know it, there will be a zero tolerance policy.

[MrBaggins]

Soriano golfed a sinker ball almost into the dirt from Lowe into the seats, in one game I recall. He's not what I'd call muscular... but he has incredibly quick hands. I think bat head velocity has a lot to do with this.

[Arrian]

Of course it does. I've seen a lot of Soriano, being a Yankee fan. When he golfs balls practically out of the dirt for homers, you will note that he's making solid contact. He's a crazy free-swinger - he actually goes down and gets those balls, and hits 'em solidly.

Look at the home run he hit in the 8th inning of the 7th game of the '01 World Series. Shilling throws a splitter that was about shin-high, and Sori goes down and gets it, crushes it, and almost wins the WS, but for Mariano's bout of humanity. Quick wrists, long reach. Solid contact.

Frankly, watching that skinny guy crush the ball is most of what makes him fun to watch. If you can put up with the agony of watching competant pitchers toy with him (once they'd seen him a time or two), that is.

-Arrian

[vlad]

Baseball players, especially the older ones also take HGH(human growth hormone). It not only improves grip strength, but also hand eye coordination, and leans out the body.And of course it isn't detected in drug tests. So essentially we have bigger, faster, stronger players.
What is funny is all eyes are on the batters, yet pitchers too use steroids and HGH, that is why we are seeing bigger stronger pitchers as well.
Marginal players were notorious for playing ball in the Dominican or Mexico in winter, because they could buy steroids without a problem. This turned some minimum salary guys into million dollar contract players.
You also have to understand many athletes use steroids to come back from injuries faster. What owner wouldn't turn a blind eye to high paid talent earning their money that much faster after injury?!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hitting a round ball squarely with a round bat is indeed the primarly skill in hitting.

However, although this is just my recollection from watching nearly every Yankees game over the last several years, it seems to me that there are a AWFUL lot of those "broken bat homerun" thingamagigs. Jamshots, pop flies, etc. that carry over the wall. "Oh, he just muscled that one out!" crows the announcer.

Look, you know when a player connects solidly. You can just tell: the ball rockets off the bat. But so many home runs are not the product of solid contact, but rather so-so contact + incredible strength of the hitter. Which is fine... except if the hitter got that strength via the use of steroids.

Well... yes, I was mostly talking about Bonds. I think the fact he plays in the most pitcher friendly part in the NL outside of Shea balances that out .

[Guynemer]

I say test every player each week, ban all who use steroids, and wipe the records off the books.


I know none of that will ever happen, but wouldn't it just warm your heart if did?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Blame the MLBPA... I hate that union.

[Guynemer]

Don't kid yourself, Imran. The owners don't want real 'roid testing either.

480 ft. home runs mean asses in the seats.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

bonds has got the quickest hands in baseball - if you throw it anywhere in the strikezone, hes gonna make contact, even way inside. in fact, he wants you to pitch him inside, cuz you think youve got him, and all of sudden he pivots, the bat flashes, and the ball is gone. and if you try fool him with a pitch out of the strikezone, he wont even move. watch him. he doesnt even step into the pitch if its going out of the zone. thats why he hits so many homers and he is the greatest hitter out there right now

[Imran Siddiqui]

Don't kid yourself, Imran. The owners don't want real 'roid testing either.

Which is why the continously brought it up, Guy?

Less HRs also means lower salaries at the top end .

[Drake Tungsten]

Bonds is a cheating bastard, as has been apparent for years. Strip the home run record from him, for the good of the game.