Bonds cheated. Strip him of home run record?

[Drake Tungsten]

Just who has the absurd position here?

You do. You're the one saying Bonds should face no reprecussions from his employer now that it has come out that he committed an act that is illegal, immoral, damaging to the image of his employer and unfair to many of his coworkers, simply because his act was technically not against the rules. This in a country where the average person would likely be fired from their job for simply possessing illegal drugs...

No wonder America is going down the tubes; none of you have any sense of honor or fair play. Bonds has soiled the name of MLB and called many of its most important records into question, yet you guys think he should slide based on some legalistic defense. It's disgusting. Bonds has no pride, that's obvious; the sad thing is that many of you seem to be following his example.

[DinoDoc]

We all seem to be correct when it comes to this debate: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cheat

[Drake Tungsten]

Nice work, DD.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You're the one saying Bonds should face no reprecussions from his employer now that it has come out that he committed an act that is illegal, immoral, damaging to the image of his employer and unfair to many of his coworkers, simply because his act was technically not against the rules. This in a country where the average person would likely be fired from their job for simply possessing illegal drugs...

Do you know of any other profession which reveres the 'stats' of the game which you'd like to be wiped? And in most union jobs, they need a reason to fire you, illegal acts is usually in most contracts, which is why they can take action against you. In baseball's it wasn't. So no action can be done. MLBPA is a strong union, why shouldn't they have the rights that lesser unions have?

Bonds has soiled the name of MLB and called many of its most important records into question

Really? Since you call into question my college football knowledge, do you know ANYTHING about baseball? Actual cheating (ie, going against the rules) is a time honored sport in basbeball. How many people have corked their bats? What about spitballs or gunk balls? Rollie Fingers hiding emory boards in his glove?

Soiled the MLB... Ha! And it is only called into question by silly people. In 10 years hardly anyone will give a damn.

[Boris Godunov]

Fair play, right...

So, in a game where you can just buy the best team year in and year out, you expect arguments based on "fair play" to carry weight? Suuuuure.

I'm all in favor of Bonds facing legal repurcussions for what he did. I'm all for MLB instituting the rules against steroids, and I'm all for them adding rules that stipulate any illegal activity is seen as cheating.

But I think Bonds' record should stand, because he acheived it totally under the rules of the game as they were at the time. If anything, letting it stand will be a nice, stinging reminder of the absurdity of there not being such rules in place long before now. It's atrocious that steroids weren't banned before, but MLB should suck it up for their own glaring error and take responsibility for it. No sweeping Bonds under the rug, let the dirty laundry be aired for all to see for a long time to come.

[Drake Tungsten]

So sad...

[Imran Siddiqui]

But I think Bonds' record should stand, because he acheived it totally under the rules of the game as they were at the time.

Indeed. I mean, do we have to go back to the beginning to see what supplements each player in each era was taken and revise downward?

If you think this is a 90s thing you are incredibly naive.

[Drake Tungsten]

Conte allegedly admits giving Bonds, others drugs

A report obtained by the San Francisco Chronicle and San Jose Mercury News indicates that the owner of Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative told federal investigators he gave steroids to nearly 30 athletes, including Barry Bonds and track stars Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery.

According to the newspapers, the document summarizes an Internal Revenue Service investigator's interview of Victor Conte last Sept. 3 during a search of the company, at which time Conte volunteered the names of the athletes.

Conte's lawyers denied the report, which reportedly lists 27 athletes -- among them Bonds, Jones, Montgomery, Kelli White and the Yankees' Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield -- to whom Conte allegedly gave steroids.

The report, however, apparently does not say if any of the athletes used the substances -- THG, testosterone cream or both -- obtained from Conte.

The story on the Chronicle's Web site, quoting sources who requested anonymity, said Conte told federal investigators that Jones and Montgomery received the performance-enhancing substances in exchange for endorsements of his nutritional supplement.

Conte's attorneys question the legality of the interview and the veracity of the IRS agent's claims. His lawyers contend the IRS report is filled with fabrications and that Conte's statements have either been falsified or were coerced, as the IRS interview was conducted under intimidating circumstances and without a tape recorder.

"The coercive nature of that interview as well as the disputed contents of what the agents claim was said in that mysteriously unrecorded statement will be the subject of pretrial motions," defense lawyers Robert Holley and Troy Ellerman said in a prepared statement.

According to the Mercury News, Conte, in the report by IRS agent Jeff Novitzky and co-signed by San Mateo County Narcotics Task Force officer Jon Columbet, is quoted as saying:

Bonds' trainer, Greg Anderson, brought Bonds and several other baseball players to BALCO to obtain drugs at the beginning of the 2003 season. The steroids were the allegedly giving to Bonds in exchange for his endorsement of Conte's legal supplement, ZMA -- a zinc- and magnesium-based, legal nutritional product.

Conte allegedly gave Jones steroids for free in exchange for her endorsement of ZMA. Conte stopped working with Jones in 2001.

Conte gave Montgomery steroids in 2002 just before the sprinter set the world record in the 100ms, at 9.78 seconds, in Paris.

A lawyer for Conte told the Chronicle that the lab owner denied ever providing information to federal agents about any specific athletes receiving steroids.

Conte said in an e-mail message to The Associated Press that he couldn't comment. Jones' publicist, Lewis Kay, could not be reached for comment.

Jones' attorney, Joseph Burton, issued a statement saying the Chronicle's story was wrong.

"Victor Conte is either lying or the statement was involuntarily coerced. This is a character assassination of the worst kind," Burton said.

"Marion has never had an endorsement deal of any kind with Victor Conte or any of his businesses, and most specifically she has never received any illegal substances from Conte in exchange for her endorsement of his products."

Jones and Montgomery, both of whom testified last fall before a federal grand jury that indicted Conte and three other men, repeatedly have denied steroid use. All four indicted men have pleaded innocent.

Bonds, Giambi and Sheffield -- all of whom testified before the grand jury -- have denied using steroids. No athlete has been charged in the case.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=1789558

What a disgrace, made even worse by the constant fawning over Bonds in the media as of late...

[GePap]

And Drake continues to charge windmills.

[Ming]

First... nothing really has been proved yet. While early indications might lead one to believe that steroids were used, you can't tar and feather somebody with the facts they have at the moment.

Second, the constant fawning over Bonds by ESPN is out of hand. Let me know when he beats the record, not just passing somebody else on the list... But, ESPN is doing whatever most media outlets would do... they are promoting what they have.

[Drake Tungsten]

And Drake continues to charge windmills.

Aren't we supposed to talk about things here on Poly? I saw the article on ESPN and thought other people would want to see it. What's the problem?

[Ming]

I surely don't see a problem. While you (drake) and I might totally disagree on the "validity" of Bonds' records... there is surely nothing wrong with bringing up what's new on the story and talking about them.

[Drake Tungsten]

Thank you, Ming.

[GePap]

I wonder why on earth Drake things his windmill charging is posting the article? It's his Quixotic campaign to have the record deleted that gets the comparison.

[Drake Tungsten]

I wonder why on earth Drake things his windmill charging is posting the article?

Maybe it's because it's the only thing I've done in reference to this topic in nearly two months? Since you said I'm "continuing" to charge at windmills and I've posted nothing else on the topic in a long time, it seems logical to think your comment was directed to my posting of said article...

[GePap]

since you were using the article as evidence for your claim, why would you not logically assume it was a post about your campaign.

you know about making assumptions.

[rah]

As much as I don't like it, I have to agree with Ming and Imran. It's not cheating since there was no rule against it. There is now, and I hope people using are caught and punished. But while there are accusations, there is no definative proof. (yes I do believe some used) I'll reserve final judgement until later.

[Drake Tungsten]

since you were using the article as evidence for your claim, why would you not logically assume it was a post about your campaign.

Jesus, even I don't remember what I said earlier in this thread. I just knew the thread existed and decided to post this article in it. What's your problem?

And as for my "campaign"...

[GePap]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Jesus, even I don't remember what I said earlier in this thread. I just knew the thread existed and decided to post this article in it. What's your problem?

I don't have one-you obviously do, given your responses.

[Drake Tungsten]

[GePap]

[Ming]

Gee... I'm just happy he found the old thread and didn't start a new one

[Drake Tungsten]

I'm just glad the search function works now...

[Boris Godunov]

At any rate, talk of stripping Bonds of his record is still very premature, since the accusations haven't even been proven yet. There aren't even charges against him.

[Ming]

If the league didn't have firm rules in place, or had no real system in place to enforce rules that were in place... how can there even be talk of stripping Bonds of his records. The most they will EVER be able to prove is that Bonds had access to the drugs. Without test results, there will NEVER be any PROOF that he actually took them. Major league baseball can't prove ANYTHING.

So even if they come up with more evidence that he had them, they still can't prove that he took them. And while it may seem obvious that he probably did... that's not enough.

Hopefully, the rules and enforcement will change so that it won't happen in the future.

[Tiamat]

Of course I'm nothing but a silly little woman but.......what happened to playing ball simply for the love of the game? The Babe did, so did Jackie Robinson etc.....what happened to just playing for playing sake.

[Arrian]

what happened to playing ball simply for the love of the game? The Babe did

Simply for the love of the game? Then why was he the highest paid player - by far - and the first, IIRC, to make more than the President? Why did the Boston newspapers cheer his trade to the Yankees (hint: because they saw him as a troublemaking pain in the ass)?

I'm sure he loved playing baseball. But I don't really see how his big contract back in 1920whatever really differs from, say, A-Rod's current monstrosity.

-Arrian

[Drake Tungsten]

I'm sure he loved playing baseball. But I don't really see how his big contract back in 1920whatever really differs from, say, A-Rod's current monstrosity.

It differs in that the Babe was actually a good player after he was traded to the Yankees...

[Arrian]

ZING! Not bad. Although A-Rod's coming out of that slump in a hurry.

-Arrian

[Tiamat]

See notation where I said I was a silly little woman.....but again for the most part when baseball started was it not for the love of the game? Not millions of dollars. I'm sure they love the game but they love the money more.