Animal Rights and Abortion

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Templar, that's stupid.

Glad to see all that money you're spending on your education has paid off. That's quite an argument you got there

This is food we are talking about. And you have no right to tell me what to eat or not.

All I said is that the length of time a practice has been going on has little to nothing to do with its morality.

BTW, try buying some psychoative mushrooms to eat. If you get busted, tell the cops that they have no right to tell you what to eat. Hell, just eat a baby on the street and watch what happens. We're not the boss of you!

Ooops! Looks like you made another overly broad generalization ...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Templar, that's stupid. This is food we are talking about. And you have no right to tell me what to eat or not.

Do you eat babies?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Do you eat babies?

Beat you to it! [nelson laugh]

[Imran Siddiqui]

If Dworkin believes in intrinsic rights, where does he believe these rights originate from?

Well, its kind of complicated, but he believes that is a combination of personal morality, social morality, and absolute morality (background morality) AND institutional morality (judgment made by institutional rules).

Many liberals believe in an absolute morality divorced from God by basically saying that humanity is special because of our ability to reason and thus it should be protected. Remember, in the US, most of the people against the death penalty for moral reasons are not doing it for religious moral reasons, but rather do not believe in God.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

If Dworkin believes in intrinsic rights, where does he believe these rights originate from?

Well, its kind of complicated

That's an understatement ...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, I know. It's kinda difficult to capture Dworkin in small post (another understatement).

[David Floyd]

Conservatives see rights as existing from outside society,

Well, in that case, stop taking my money for "defense", and stop telling gays what they can and can't do together.

Come on, BK. Conservatives don't believe that any more than liberals do. I believe it, but you don't.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I believe it, but you don't.

DUDE! He believes rights exist from God... that's as outside society as you can get!

[Kuciwalker]

BK just believes in different rights

[David Floyd]

DUDE! He believes rights exist from God... that's as outside society as you can get!

Fine, but he doesn't consistently apply them. And besides, his point was about "conservatives" not "Ben Kenobi".

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't think he'd consider you a Conservative . I think he'd consider Bush and the ilk as 'conservatives'.

And I haven't seen him not consistently applying God's "rights'".

[Rex Little]

Slight nitpick: isn't Andrea Dworkin a "she"?

[Mr. Harley]

My personel definition of right and left wing - each wants to use legislation to impose their version of "right" or "morality" on personal behavior, i.e. those acts that do not directly impact another individual. Of course those people involved then make the claim that the animal or the fertilized ovum has rights that trump the people upon whom the right or left winger is attempting to impose their "approved" behaviors.

The thing I find terribly amusing about both groups is how they cry "foul" when their opposites successfully use the legislative process to impose their agenda on them. BOTH groups have declared that is an acceptable use of the legislative process, so if somebody manages to manipulate it better they throw a temper tantrum without realizing that once you make that use/abuse of legislation and individual rights acceptable, you set the stage for somebody to do it to you (compel you to conform to a behavior you disagree with via force of law and/or threat of imprisonment).

It's why I've become a social libetarian. If you want to state that you will not use a cure for Alzheimers if it involves cloned stem cells using the patient's nuclei and fetal stem cells, go ahead. Similarly, if you don't want to use drugs that were tested using animals, fine. Just don't try to pass laws shoving YOUR choice down my throat. It's also amusing, many of those who are most strident suddenly take a different view if it's their loved one; parent, spouse, or child. It's why I respect Christian Scientists. They are willing to die for their beliefs. I think they're crazy, but I still respect them. I find in general very few of those who want to use legislation to cram their values down my throat having the same level of dedication and commitment.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I think they should work together.

Are you nuts!?

The world is ****ed up as it is.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by The Templar


Glad to see all that money you're spending on your education has paid off. That's quite an argument you got there



All I said is that the length of time a practice has been going on has little to nothing to do with its morality.

BTW, try buying some psychoative mushrooms to eat. If you get busted, tell the cops that they have no right to tell you what to eat. Hell, just eat a baby on the street and watch what happens. We're not the boss of you!

Ooops! Looks like you made another overly broad generalization ...

You vegans are an illogical bunch of people. I eat meat. I like steak. I like pork. No psycho-commie like you is going to stop me from eating it. You are blowing things out of proportion. I am not listening to some psychological piece of work.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think you're putting words in their mouths.

I'm also trying to create a substantial debate, so shush.

[Ben Kenobi]

Fine, but he doesn't consistently apply them. And besides, his point was about "conservatives"

Then what is your answer to the question I posed Imran.

If you believe in intrinsic rights, where do they come from?

[Ben Kenobi]

If you want to state that you will not use a cure for Alzheimers if it involves cloned stem cells using the patient's nuclei and fetal stem cells, go ahead. Similarly, if you don't want to use drugs that were tested using animals, fine. Just don't try to pass laws shoving YOUR choice down my throat.

For the former, why should I not be able to kill you and harvest your organs, in order to save the lives of many people who desperately need those organs?

[Mr. Harley]

BK, at that point your action directly affects me, and I believe in this individual named Descartes - I think, therefor I am. Your argument is a false analogy at best, a red herring (or a troll) at worst - a frozen embryo that is surplus and will not be used, and with prior approval of the parents, i.e. the standards imposed in Britian for harvesting embryonic stem cells, works quite nicely.

As a better analogy, if I am brain dead and being kept alive on a ventilator, I have asked them to harvest my organs - it almost happened to me, I had an adult tonsillectomy in small West Virginia town and hemorrhaged, lost 2 liters of blood and they put the IV THROUGH my vein when the nursing staff panicked. It didn't help that I was the young Canadian doctor's first bleeder. Woke up the next morning in intensive care.

I felt like someone dancing on my grave when, one month later, I watched them take the coolers out onto the ramp at the airport I was based at - organ runs. I almost was carted off the same way. I STILL am an organ donor, though. While you may argue whether the frozen blastulas (the stage if I remember correctly they freeze the developing egg) can give consent, the parents can, and since at that point the blastula cannot develop further - they are surplus and will never be implanted. It's loosely analagous to my being an organ donor, and legally in practically the same, at least in GB.

Remember one thing, Ben. Do you want the Catholic Church, Southern Baptist Convention, Mormons, or Muslims, writing our laws and codes of conduct, just to name a few groups very comfortable with the such activity. In fact Islam states that non-Muslims should be content to live under Sharia because it is righteous and derives from God - which by the way has come up with a generally agreed consensus (they are called a Fatwa, or didn't you know?) that the fetus does not become a child until after 100 days . You disagree? Exactly my point.

Beware of tramping on the laws that protect me from your religious beliefs, because in tearing them down you may find others exploiting them and imposing their religious beliefs on you - for example, Islam forbidding you to proselytize. I know you can't see it, but look at other parts of the world and then tell me it cannot happen here. That's what they said in Germany in the 1930's.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VJ
And what's wrong with that?

Wouldn't the meat be goo-ish? Sorry, but that's just as wrong as eating snails

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You vegans are an illogical bunch of people. I eat meat. I like steak. I like pork. No psycho-commie like you is going to stop me from eating it. You are blowing things out of proportion. I am not listening to some psychological piece of work.

Fez once again sticks his head into sand...

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Does this mean that all meat-eaters should support abortions? I'm confused.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Fez once again sticks his head into sand...

How is that possible? And how can I do that with regards to eating animals? I mean what the hell does that have to do with abortions or cannabalism? You vegans really need to see a psychologist.

[Spiffor]

Yep. I wonder who is the "you" he mentions btw

[Urban Ranger]

Gimpy,

Nope, that's just a side issue wrt ethics and food.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


You think there is some sort of hypocrisy involved because somehow you think that the reasons behind the stances on animal rights issue and abortion issue must be unified. According to you, only one rationale is allowed to explain their positions on both issues.

Since this is a silly idea, I don't see where the hypocrisy is.

He's arguing the egg issue. If she calls a fertilized egg an animal, why is a fertilized human embryo not a livng thing that should not be killed?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DaShi
If she calls a fertilized egg an animal, why is a fertilized human embryo not a livng thing that should not be killed?

In this case, it's not hypocrisy, but rather stupidity

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DaShi
He's arguing the egg issue. If she calls a fertilized egg an animal, why is a fertilized human embryo not a livng thing that should not be killed?

In this case, he's using one single data point to argue a whole issue, a very very bad case of hasty generalisation.

[Combat Ingrid]

Fez and BK in the same thread... I don't think it's even worth bothering... Besides, who could possibly counter such well-informed killer arguments like:

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You vegans are an illogical bunch of people. I eat meat. I like steak. I like pork. No psycho-commie like you is going to stop me from eating it.

[East Street Trader]

In the UK the behaviour of some animal rights activists has reached such a point that I doubt my reaction to their cause could ever be free of my distaste for them.

Not content with making threats to judges whose judgments they dislike they have taken to publishing the addresses of such judges' mothers.

It is common to hear a thug described as "an animal". In fact, however, there is no animal that acts as despicably as that.