I am a liar and a demagogue - Page 2

GePap · March 5, 2004, 15:51

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Oh him, he's the Judean People's Front . . . SPLITTER!!

The term is SPLINTER, NOT SPLITTER...

As for this situation (ignore all the non-politicos)- while you should personally get over it (in terms of relaizing you have no control, and that what he says is his opinion, which he is entitled to but you should not allow it to be drag on you), you should, as a candidate, reach out to other party members and state your side of the case, if he has started to talk about you behind your back- it is important to be in control of the message, so you can;t have someone distorting you and your views to fellow party members. Don't be bitter about it, and don;t talk badly about him when talking to third parties in the party YET, but you have to be on the offensive as it were, in control of your image out there.

chequita guevara · March 5, 2004, 15:52

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
The term is SPLINTER, NOT SPLITTER...

Apparently you didn't see the movie.

GePap · March 5, 2004, 15:57

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Apparently you didn't see the movie.

Yes I did, and he says Splinter!, not Splitter!..(IIRC)

chequita guevara · March 5, 2004, 16:00

Splitter is a commie insult. Splinter is not.

Az · March 5, 2004, 16:04

Splinter is a great sensei, and the leader of the Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Spiffor · March 5, 2004, 16:09

1. Thanks for the "transfuge". I had no idea it meant that

2. You'd be surprised to hear all people aren't like that in the PCF. Even more so, this guy has even been expelled from the party during the stalinist persiod, to be rehabilitated a decade later or so. He may be stubborn and sectarian, but at least he is consistent with his ideas.

Besides, not all people act like him. Some people opposing the social-democratic tendencies in the party oppose it from within (it was actually a strong current last time we voted on our platform). The leadership is beginning to understand its errors. And most people I've met can agree to disagree.
I wouldn't say the party members now have a completely democratic mentality, but I think the PCF is the best in this regard after the Greens. Definitely better than the authoritarian (UMP) or oligarchic (PS) major parties.

I actually joined the PCF, and become increasingly active in there, because it is the only party that offers a real left-wing policy, and which wants to push it at the government. I don't believe in revolutions, and thus the real left-wing government party gets naturally my preference.
BTW, I strongly advise you to read our platform for your region (not a flier, but the real document - 20 pages for Paris), and you'll see we are interested with actual measures, realistic measures, and not only heart-bleeding. This is exactly the kind of party I want. This is exactly the kind of party many sincere left-wingers should want. We just have real trouble publicizing what we are about, now that the USSR has collapsed

Imran Siddiqui · March 5, 2004, 16:09

I believe it was 'Splitter' GePap.

GePap · March 5, 2004, 16:15

Well, I guess splitter it was...

Spiffor · March 5, 2004, 16:17

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
As for this situation (ignore all the non-politicos)- while you should personally get over it (in terms of relaizing you have no control, and that what he says is his opinion, which he is entitled to but you should not allow it to be drag on you), you should, as a candidate, reach out to other party members and state your side of the case, if he has started to talk about you behind your back- it is important to be in control of the message, so you can;t have someone distorting you and your views to fellow party members. Don't be bitter about it, and don;t talk badly about him when talking to third parties in the party YET, but you have to be on the offensive as it were, in control of your image out there.

Yep, that's pretty much what I did. He and his friends are now completely isolated from the party, because their insults have pretty much alienated all those who remained.
However, I try not to insult him (past "sectarian" and "stubborn", which are objective behavioral perks), and I even try to remind people of his great achievement as an activist.

The only person he could really influence is the Green personality in town, to whom he's friend, but I trust her to listen to my side of the story as well, and to understand not to get involved in this person's-rivalry.
Besides that, he could still bother me while I distribute fliers on the marketplace, but I don't expect it: he doesn't go there too often.

Oncle Boris · March 5, 2004, 16:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Which is why commies will never win. Capitalism triumphs again!

All united behind their greed, that is.

Imran Siddiqui · March 5, 2004, 16:26

And your point is?

Bereta_Eder · March 5, 2004, 16:27

capitalism hasn't won really. Just look at all this social state we're having. free health, free education (in theory). that's all socialist conquests.

Spiffor · March 5, 2004, 16:29

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
capitalism hasn't won really. Just look at all this social state we're having. free health, free education (in theory). that's all socialist conquests.

And the capitalists are currently winning the fight in destroying these great progresses

Bereta_Eder · March 5, 2004, 16:30

that's why we must fight again, and again win comrade!

Oncle Boris · March 5, 2004, 16:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And your point is?

When it comes to create a wolfpack, wolves are great.

Oncle Boris · March 5, 2004, 16:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor

And the capitalists are currently winning the fight in destroying these great progresses

Yes. 1960-1990 was the golden age of the middle class.

Imran Siddiqui · March 5, 2004, 16:33

Quote:

capitalism hasn't won really. Just look at all this social state we're having. free health, free education (in theory). that's all socialist conquests.

Still got a market economy. You still buy and sell goods based on supply and demand

.

Quote:

When it comes to create a wolfpack, wolves are great.

Indeed!

Bereta_Eder · March 5, 2004, 16:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

capitalism hasn't won really. Just look at all this social state we're having. free health, free education (in theory). that's all socialist conquests.

Still got a market economy. You still buy and sell goods based on supply and demand

.

And that's wrong because? Coupled with free education and free health a robust social state and not being the slaves of free markets it's the best system IMO. Using free markets, not letting them use you

Bereta_Eder · March 5, 2004, 16:38

Besides it's not only based in crude supply and demand. There's lots of regulations for the best interests of the wide society.

Oncle Boris · March 5, 2004, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Still got a market economy. You still buy and sell goods based on supply and demand

.

Capitalism has pretty much won. If you take a global perspective, spawning from 1600 to 2000, the pattern is clear. The next superpower, China, still follows the path: capitalism will bring her to the forefront.

The social-democracies are likely to disappear, and will likely be mere bumps in history, candies invented by the elite.

Bereta_Eder · March 5, 2004, 16:40

Seeing as the social state is the defining aspect of Europe and has been so for half a century I doubt it will be just a bump. Of course as Spiffor said, we must keep on fighting! Nothing's for free

Imran Siddiqui · March 5, 2004, 16:42

Quote:

And that's wrong because? Coupled with free education and free health a robust social state and not being the slaves of free markets it's the best system IMO. Using free markets, not letting them use you

Not saying it's wrong. I'm saying that your economies are MORE capitalist than they are socialist. Even a place like Sweden, you can say that. There isn't a country out there that doesn't have some form of capitalism.

Bereta_Eder · March 5, 2004, 16:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

And that's wrong because? Coupled with free education and free health a robust social state and not being the slaves of free markets it's the best system IMO. Using free markets, not letting them use you

Not saying it's wrong. I'm saying that your economies are MORE capitalist than they are socialist. Even a place like Sweden, you can say that. There isn't a country out there that doesn't have some form of capitalism.

yeah but universal health care, free education for all, social welfare are socialist ideals and thus socialist conquests. so it's more of a regulated capitalism.

Az · March 5, 2004, 17:05

Quote:

There isn't a country out there that doesn't have some form of capitalism.

Define capitalism.

chequita guevara · March 5, 2004, 17:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Capitalism has pretty much won.

For now.

chequita guevara · March 5, 2004, 17:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm saying that your economies are MORE capitalist than they are socialist. Even a place like Sweden, you can say that. There isn't a country out there that doesn't have some form of capitalism.

Imran sounds like an ultra-Trot here. He's also right.

Spiffor · March 5, 2004, 17:41

Isn't Mongolia still a socialist economy?

chequita guevara · March 5, 2004, 17:41

Nope. They went market some time ago. Maybe North Korea, but who knows with that place. It's the land reality forgot.

Imran Siddiqui · March 5, 2004, 17:43

Quote:

Imran sounds like an ultra-Trot here. He's also right.

As in Trotskyist?

Can I have a beret, comrade

.

Quote:

yeah but universal health care, free education for all, social welfare are socialist ideals and thus socialist conquests. so it's more of a regulated capitalism.

Doesn't change my point.

Spiffor · March 5, 2004, 17:50

And indeed, Imran is right in saying current economies are capitalist. Even the Scandinavian social-democracies are capitalist countries that acknowledge the private ownership of the means of production.

The idea behind social democracy is to make capitalism livable. The idea behind socialism is to get rid of capitalism. Paik advocates a social democracy, which is something nice already. But it is not exactly socialist, even if "Socialist" parties tend to be social-democratic.