NY Times on Kerry: Liar!

[Ned]

The truth and Kerry are seldom together in the same audience reports the arch right-wing defamation publication, the NYTimes.

How can anyone trust Kerry?

By DAVID M. HALBFINGER


BOSTON, March 5 — When Senator John Kerry was speaking to Jewish leaders a few days ago, he said Israel's construction of a barrier between it and Palestinian territories was a legitimate act of self-defense. But in October, he told an Arab-American group that it was "provocative and counterproductive" and a "barrier to peace."

On Feb. 5, Mr. Kerry reacted to Massachusetts' highest court's decision legalizing same-sex marriages by saying, "I personally believe the court is dead wrong." But when asked on Feb. 24 why he believed the decision was not correct, he shot back, "I didn't say it wasn't."

Throughout his campaign, Mr. Kerry has shown a knack for espousing both sides of divisive issues. Earlier in the race he struggled to square his vote to authorize the use of force in Iraq with his loud criticism of the war and his eventual vote against $87 billion for military operations and reconstruction.

Now with the general-election campaign under way, President Bush and Republicans are already attacking Mr. Kerry for precisely this characteristic. In California this week, the president said Mr. Kerry had "been in Washington long enough to take both sides on just about every issue." And on Friday the Republican National Committee e-mailed to reporters an Internet boxing game called "Kerry vs. Kerry" designed, the committee said, to highlight the senator's "multiple positions on multiple issues."

The e-mail included a list of Mr. Kerry's stances on 30 issues, including many of the examples that were researched in preparation for this article.

In fact, this trait, perhaps a natural one for a diplomat's son, seems to have been ingrained in Mr. Kerry's personality as far back as when he volunteered for duty in Vietnam after expressing doubts about the war as a college student — and then returned home and helped lead the opposition to the war.

Some aides and close associates say Mr. Kerry's fluidity is the mark of an intellectual who grasps the subtleties of issues, inhabits their nuances and revels in the deliberative process. They call him a free-thinker who defies stereotypes. Others close to him say his often-public agonizing — over whether to opt out of the system of spending caps and matching money in this campaign, or whether to run against Al Gore in 2000 — can be exasperating.

And some Democratic strategists worry that Mr. Kerry is still an unfamiliar figure to many voters, and that these early attacks show just how vulnerable he is to being defined by the Republicans as indecisive or politically expedient.

"If Kerry fails to define himself as someone who's been consistent on values, on foreign policy, on domestic issues, then the Bush team will have succeeded in putting him in a corner," said Donna Brazile, who ran Mr. Gore's campaign in 2000. "They want to get to his integrity and his character, and they will use his voting record and previous statements to undermine that he can be trusted."

Other Democrats suggest that the areas in which Mr. Kerry has showed indecisiveness or tried to split the difference are the same ones in which most Americans are conflicted.

"Clearly he is trying to walk a very fine line on extremely divisive social issues like gay marriage and the Patriot Act," said Ron Klain, another Gore adviser in 2000. "These are issues where the political terrain is changing very rapidly, and he is trying to stay in the middle. And I think he's walking the tightrope on those issues, and doing a pretty good job of navigating it so far."

Sometimes, Mr. Kerry's stances seem to be well-thought political strategy. At no time was this more evident than the day when he spoke against opponents of gun control in an Iowa barn, then strode out to his car, unwrapped an old shotgun, and went off to shoot pheasant. The message was that hunters could be for gun control.

Other times he may tailor his stands to an audience or even run away from past positions. When Gen. Wesley K. Clark pointed to a 1992 remark by Mr. Kerry calling affirmative action "an inherently limited and divisive program," the senator denied he had ever said that.

Sometimes Mr. Kerry seems to embody contradictions. When he lost for Congress in 1972, went to law school and became a prosecutor, he stunned some of his colleagues in the antiwar movement who thought he shared their anti-authority sentiment, sharpened by Vietnam and Watergate.

"A lot of liberal Democrats in Massachusetts thought, What is this about?" said Ron Rosenblith, who met Mr. Kerry in the antiwar movement and has worked for him over the years as an aide, campaign manager and consultant. "They didn't see it as consistent."

Of course, it is just some of these aspects of Mr. Kerry — hunter, prosecutor, deficit hawk, war veteran — which now give him an answer to suggestions that he is nothing more than a "Massachusetts liberal" in the mold of Michael S. Dukakis, whom he served as lieutenant governor.

"He doesn't fit into any neat pigeon holes," said Mr. Kerry's younger brother, Cameron, his closest adviser. "He's complex. So what?"

Those who have known him a long time say Mr. Kerry is a creature of the gray areas in politics and policy, asking endless questions about all the angles, playing the devil's advocate until his aides are exhausted, arguing as if with himself until the last possible minute.

"There's indoor John and outdoor John," said Jonathan Winer, a Washington lawyer and former State Department official who worked for Mr. Kerry from 1983 to 1994.

"Indoor John is thoughtful, works all this through, is nuanced, and so deeply into the process that you can get impatient," Mr. Winer said. "Outdoor John is a man of action. There'd be a point where, Boom! and go. Once it happened, the dialogue was over, and you wouldn't always know which way he was going to go."

Mr. Kerry's explanations for a number of the recent stances Republicans are branding as flip-flops have a common thread. He voted for the Iraq resolution but criticizes the war because, he says, the president "broke his promises" to exhaust the diplomatic process and use force only as a last resort. He voted for the education legislation known as the No Child Left Behind law but lambastes President Bush now because, Mr. Kerry says, he withheld promised additional money for education.

And on Friday, he said he had criticized the Israeli wall before the Arab-American group in October because its path was then expected to deviate widely from Israel's border into West Bank villages — though he conceded he had not made the distinction clear at the time.

Mr. Kerry also voted for the antiterrorism law known as the USA Patriot Act, which he has since all but repudiated, telling Democratic audiences that the best thing Congress put into that law was a sunset clause that will make it expire next year, unless Congress renews it. He has likened the law's use against Americans to the repression of Afghans by the Taliban.

But he also says the law was necessary when it was passed, as a response to the Sept. 11 attacks. And as recently as last week, he went further, telling a group of newspaper editors and reporters, "Of course I support it," before adding that his objections were mainly to the way Attorney General John Ashcroft had been "abusing" it.

People who have worked closely with him in the Senate say that Mr. Kerry tends to split differences. A longtime friend and aide put it this way: "On some major issues there are yes-but votes and no-but votes. He sees a lot of them as yes-but."

A "yes-but" can also be revisited. Mr. Kerry's critics have cited his position on the death penalty as evidence that even his core convictions can be bent to his political ambition. He was a longtime opponent of capital punishment but came out in favor of an exception for terrorists after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Mr. Rosenblith said Mr. Kerry had been thinking about the issue for years. He recalled that Mr. Kerry had terrorists on his mind when the subject arose in his re-election campaign against Gov. William F. Weld in 1996. "Even in '96, he thought that was a close call," Mr. Rosenblith said, remembering an elaborate discussion of the issue. He said Mr. Kerry decided against a death penalty for terrorists at that time because he thought it would keep other countries from extraditing terrorism suspects to the United States.

Indeed, Mr. Kerry said in a debate that Mr. Weld's support for the death penalty "would amount to a terrorist-protection policy."

What changed Mr. Kerry's mind, Mr. Rosenblith said, was that after Sept. 11, 2001, "other countries are far less likely to say, `No, we're not going to turn over this person to you.' "

"The world looks at terrorism very differently," Mr. Rosenblith said.

Mr. Winer, the former aide, who worked with Mr. Kerry on terrorism and many other issues, described Mr. Kerry's complexity as right for the times.

"Between the moral clarity, black and white, good and evil of George Bush that distorts and gets reality wrong," he said, "and someone who quotes a French philosopher, André Gide, saying, `Don't try to understand me too much,' I'd let Americans decide which in the end is closer to what they need in a president, in a complex world where if you get it really wrong there are enormous consequences."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/06/po...rint&position=

[Kuciwalker]

The media could do to him what they did to Dean...

[Ned]

Skywalker, I think you are right.

[alva]

Why don't you ever come up with one of these stories 'bout Bushy..?

(And please don't tell me they don't exist)

[Ned]

Originally posted by alva
Why don't you ever come up with one of these stories 'bout Bushy..?

(And please don't tell me they don't exist)

Alva, because.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by skywalker
The media could do to him what they did to Dean...

Well I doubt we will hear the following word from Kerry:


"Yeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!"

So he should be okay.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by alva
Why don't you ever come up with one of these stories 'bout Bushy..?

(And please don't tell me they don't exist)

Wheather or not you like Bush's message, it has been pretty consistent.

[Ned]

Plato, Bush is a rareity among politicians, a man of his word.

[alva]

Hmm, ok

It's not about wether Bush or Kerry wins, it's about your life (IE which one can do better on improving yours)

You need to be critical about the two of them.

What good is it ending up on the winning team and still loose.

[Ned]

Alva, had Joe Lieberman been the Democrat nominee, I could have enthusiatically supported him. Why? Two reasons: 1) he is right on foreign policy; and 2) he is honest. Kerry is neither.

[alva]

Wheather or not you like Bush's message, it has been pretty consistent.

True that, I don't I've heard him speak a sentence without mentioning terrorism.
-

Plato, Bush is a rareity among politicians, a man of his word.

Not even gonna bother..

[Ned]

alva, I fail to even begin to understand your attitude concerning politicians who lie, lie, lie and then lie some more. Do you really like such craveness in your leadership?

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by alva

Not even gonna bother..

Exactly. Considering the Bush cabal makes the Nixon Administration look like choirboys, I'll take a few flip-flops here and there.

As far as the Patriot Act goes, a lot of politicians got behind it w/o reading the fine print on both sides of the aisle.

And the war? Well, I can't blame somebody for regretting their vote, when the rationale presented was utter BS.

[St Leo]

Bush lies.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ned
Plato, Bush is a rareity among politicians, a man of his word.

Maybe you believe that, but it still sounds funny coming out.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by St Leo
Bush lies.

Bushwatch.com? I'd find more credibility at TheOnion.com.

Kerry flip-flops all the time. At least Bush doesn't. Lets face it, both are anti-gay marriage. That's a fact. I am voting on honesty and national security, and in my opinion Bush far wins that one.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Kerry flip-flops all the time. At least Bush doesn't. Lets face it, both are anti-gay marriage. That's a fact. I am voting on honesty and national security, and in my opinion Bush far wins that one.

Oh, fine, whatever. I think America isn't in any danger from anyone, but what do I know?

Vote Green or Nader!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by St Leo
Oh, fine, whatever. I think America isn't in any danger from anyone, but what do I know?

Yeah... lets just sit with our thumbs up our butts, and letting Al Qaeda into the country to blow more things up... smart one.

Vote Green or Nader!

Nader's independent correct me if I am wrong. And a moron too. And besides a vote for Nader, is a vote for Bush. Yeah vote Nader!

[oedo]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Yeah... lets just sit with our thumbs up our butts, and letting Al Qaeda into the country to blow more things up.

In an elementary school in Sarasota, Florida, for example?

[cinch]

Originally posted by PLATO


Wheather or not you like Bush's message, it has been pretty consistent.

Oh, I remember the days when he was running for President... giving talks about American shouldn't get itself involved in "nation-building activities"...

And you know what, he did keep to his word. His administration has done nothing but destroy nations since it came to power.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by cinch


Oh, I remember the days when he was running for President... giving talks about American shouldn't get itself involved in "nation-building activities"...

Three or four years ago? Kerry has consistently flip flopped every two weeks.

And no, it only liberated nations.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Giancarlo

Bushwatch.com? I'd find more credibility at TheOnion.com. .

Yes, you would, since everyone knows about that time you got fooled into taking an Onion article seriously.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Agathon


Yes, you would, since everyone knows about that time you got fooled into taking an Onion article seriously.

I was just joking around when I said I took it seriously, numb nuts.

[Agathon]

I believe you.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Ned
Plato, Bush is a rareity among politicians, a man of his word.

Ned, you bust my **** up.

[oedo]

Originally posted by Ned
Plato, Bush is a rareity among politicians, a man of his word.

I wouldn´t be too surprised, if that goes into anyone's sig.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dude, I voted Bush in 2000, but honest? Come on!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
I am voting on honesty and national security, and in my opinion Bush far wins that one.

Honesty?

Harken. Guard duty. CBN in Iraq. 'nuff said.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Dude, I voted Bush in 2000, but honest? Come on!

Imran, sure he is. He said he would cut taxes. He did. He said he would declare war on those responsible for 9/11. He did. He said he would disarm Saddam. He did.

While it is true that he was against nation building, he did not invade Afghanistan and Iraq for this purpose. Once their, he had no choice.

As to WMD, everyone knows that we, and for that matter, everyone else (including the French) were relying on less that reliable intelligence. We and the Brits are now investigating why. But no one seriously contends that Bush lied about WMD because that assumes he knew the intelligence was unreliable.

I can think of no major policy where Bush said he would do one thing and then did another.

[Kuciwalker]

Ned, I think you are mistaking "predictable" for "honest"