Illustrating the Power of Buying Workers

ducki · March 7, 2004, 01:48

I know, I know. We've all heard it before. "Buy the AI workers to cripple them early." In the "olden days", you could nab a slave for around 30gold. The going price in Conquests seems to be around 120g, give or take.

Is it still worth it?

Well, a picture is worth a thousand words, so here's a couple thousand worth.

The year is 1830BC, the level is Monarch, and I was wondering why these two AIs were so sluggish.
Then I checked my Military Advisor and realized I'd de-workered them out of habit.

ducki · March 7, 2004, 01:49

And victim number two.

vmxa1 · March 7, 2004, 04:09

You brute you

One shield, not going to get much done at that rate. No roads either.

Donegeal · March 7, 2004, 06:03

Something else must have happened to them. The AI starts tile improvement right away. The Iriquios are either in a war or they are having Barb troubles

Krill · March 7, 2004, 10:20

Ducki: When did you by the workers? If you can buy them early enough, then early growth would be alot easier for with the extra worker/s, and the AI would have no chance of expansion

My REXing (I hope) will improve noend (Not that it needs it)

ducki · March 7, 2004, 19:13

Oh, I bought them a while back.
It's just become habit to buy them if I can afford them, and early on, I check diplo every turn(bleh, painful, but worth it), so I have no idea how long ago, but it was "fairly early".

vmxa1 · March 7, 2004, 21:24

When you say you check every turn do you mean you click on each leader in the F4 screen and selcet make a deal? If so what do you offer?

ducki · March 7, 2004, 23:29

Yeah, I try to trade with everyone I know every turn in the early game. After a certain point, this becomes tedious to the tenth power, but early on, I'm trying to keep tabs on who knows what, who's making money, who has workers for sale, etc. It's not as good as an embassy, but it still keeps my finger on the pulse, so to speak.

For workers, I'll try to roll them into a tech deal, since that costs me nothing and will be traded around anyways, and if I've already sold it to someone else, a straight worker-for-tech deal may sound awfully cheap, but at ~120g in C3C, that's not bad for something I've already traded.

If I have "lots" of cash and am either having trouble keeping workers produced or just feeling mean, I'll spend actual money, but prefer to try to use tech/RoP/resources instead of gobbling cash.

Mountain Sage · March 8, 2004, 07:00

Ducki,

Yesss, the diplomatic screen is the most effective way to win.

Dr. A. Cula · March 8, 2004, 08:45

All I can say is you're lucky. I also used to check diplomacy every turn until around 1AD, and I only found AI workers in the capitol about once or twice per game. Buying those didn't make much of a difference.

ducki · March 8, 2004, 12:01

Quote:

Buying those didn't make much of a difference.

This is a very exaggerated pair of examples and as noted, there is probably something else giving the Iroquois fits.

It may not seemed to make much difference, but the effects are normally fairly subtle. Additionally, the earlier you can buy a worker, the more effect it will have, simply due to the importance of the early game.

You're not likely to "cripple" an AI the way you could with a little trimming war, but when you buy a worker, the AI stops improving (as many) tiles until he works another worker into his queue and spends the time and shields to build it, often with growth being the constraining factor instead of shields, freezing a town for several extra turns as opposed to building a warrior then a worker as we would.

Additionally, you get half a worker out of the deal with no upkeep(aside from bad feelings from the civ) - this part, however, is just the icing on the cake - it's forcing the AI to change tracks that is the true goal here. Disruption is the main benefit, and it is normally far more subtle than these two screenshots.

Dominae · March 8, 2004, 12:16

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki
Additionally, you get half a worker out of the deal with no upkeep(aside from bad feelings from the civ) - this part, however, is just the icing on the cake - it's forcing the AI to change tracks that is the true goal here. Disruption is the main benefit, and it is normally far more subtle than these two screenshots.

Maybe on Monarch, but on the higher difficulties I disagree with this. The best part about Worker-buying is having an extra half-Worker to help you along. On Emperor or above, you have very little control over the AI's economy for quite a while, so yours is the most important. You'll rarely have enough Gold to seriously disrupt them. Like others have said, there's something else going on the the examples provided than just Worker-buying.

A good idea for a thread, though.

Dominae

Arrian · March 8, 2004, 13:20

Mmm, worker buying.

Better yet, worker stealing.

I like that even better.

I've been playing around with the Lean Green Machine (though I'm still trying to have my cake and eat it too, which is causing me problems, but it's been interesting nonetheless).

-Arrian

vmxa1 · March 8, 2004, 15:13

Lean Green Machine?

ducki · March 8, 2004, 15:23

Aztecs, man. A good old treatment of them in one of the must read threads, titled something like "The Joys of Being a Bloodthirsty Barbarian".

Rhothaerill · March 8, 2004, 16:09

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki
Aztecs, man. A good old treatment of them in one of the must read threads, titled something like "The Joys of Being a Bloodthirsty Barbarian".

It could be the Persians too. They are green as well.

Ducki, here is a link to The Immortal Storm which is an AAR I wrote for one of the last PTW games I played. I played the Persians and ended up purchasing and 'acquiring'

so many slave workers that I only ended up building 6 (IIRC) native workers and my starting location was surrounded by a huge jungle.

vmxa1 · March 8, 2004, 17:20

I first thought of Persia and then Greeks and Japan. I then gave up. Lots of green, but now I do recall hearing them called that before.

ducki · March 8, 2004, 17:32

That's a great read Rothaerill, though a bit ironic considering the theme, no?
Very brutal, nicely played.

Arrian · March 8, 2004, 17:35

Sorry. The Aztecs.

Worker theft via Jags (w/o triggering a GA).

The problem I was having was my attempt at doing ALL of the following:

1) Settler/Worker pump(s) for expansion
2) Troop pumps (archers and also chariots & warriors for upgrade)
3) Faux war with Jags to steal workers and pillage AI land, and extorting tech at the end.
4) Real war for conquest, but a "Lazy War" hoping for a Leader so I could rush the Forbidden.

The starting spot was decent (on a lake with many bonus grass) and I got a settler from a hut early. But I also had a large jungle to deal with, and none of my cities were +5fpt capable.

I used Jags to screw the French royally by stealing their starting worker and pillaging every tile they had developed. I did not, however, mess with the Americans (my other neighbor) for a long time. Maybe I should have.

Anyway, I conquered France with archers and horsemen, and then unleashed the same horde, with a couple of swords as well, on America.

One I had was that it took me FOREVER to get that Leader I wanted. I ended up rushing the FP deep in American territory... and I'm wondering if I actually placed it too far from my capital. The relatively late FP meant that most of my conquests did me little good for a long time.

Another major problem: I delayed my GA, and delayed, and delayed... I wanted an optimal GA. I *should* have triggered it when I launched my war on America. I was a republic by then (and suffering rather nasty support costs). But I didn't. In fact, I tried to launch it as I assaulted the very last AI city on my continent, but my Elite Jag retreated from a defending archer. I took the city, wiping out the Americans and ending my warfare phase without triggering my GA.

I waited too long, you see. Though I'm clearly winning (huge score lead, several techs out in front, FP down, main improvements mostly built, etc), I missed out on a bundle of my favorite wonders. Sun Tzu, Sistine, Leos, Copernicus... like dominoes. Lost 'em all. Got Bach so far, and that's IT. Unless you count the captured and now obselete Temple of Artemis. EDIT: I lie! I did build the Great Library. It actually did help me a little too, netting me Theology and Education (I was researching along the southern branch to preserve both the GL and Artemis while I send suicide galley after suicide galley to try and make contact. I think the 6th or 7th galley made it).

I was playing around with the 'tecs on Monarch to see if I could translate the Jag and the Ag/Mil combo into an early power explosion at the expense of my neighbors, without triggering an ultra-early GA (saving that for the middle ages). My results were mixed. In the long run, my Aztec empire will easily reign supreme. But, especially playing on Monarch, I was hoping full spectrum dominance (Ultimate Power) would come sooner.

I'll just have to try again.

-Arrian

Aqualung71 · March 9, 2004, 05:27

Go read how Aeson handled them in the Jaguar Warrior thread at the AU forum. Absolutely awesome!

Arrian · March 9, 2004, 11:18

I did read it. I commented in that thread, in fact (in awe).

That was a big factor in my motivation to give something similar a shot.

-Arrian

Aqualung71 · March 9, 2004, 23:02

DP

Aqualung71 · March 9, 2004, 23:03

Sorry Arrian, I wasn't directing my comment at you since I know you were there.

I too need to give something like this a go, since my early game sucks as it is and I may need to take more of a military approach to things to help with the land grab and trimming AI power at the same time.